AROS for 68k question
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10926 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Or there was something beyond simulation. [...]

    Thanks.

    "When I knew Hombre better, in 1993-1994, it was two chips, and using the PCI bus and a PC-industry GPIO for all of the basic I/O stuff. "

    According to this statement, there may have been a Hombre prototype on a PCI card. I wonder if such card still exists or if there are pictures of such card at least.


    Edit:

    According to Dr. Hepler:

    Supposed date of completion as of September 1993:
    "The time frame for this chip set is CY 2H 1994."
    (Hombre_part_3.pdf, page 3)

    "Current status" in October 1993:
    "Block diagrams of all chips have been generated. Interfaces to memory and between chips have been defined. Schematics of the CPU chip and Video chip have been started and various blocks have been simulated."
    (Hombre_part_1.pdf, page 19)

    Supposed date of completion as of April 1994:
    "Late 1994 "First Silicon" Availability for 1995 Production"
    (Hombre_Presentation_part_1.pdf, page 3)

    "Status" in April 1994:
    "- Schematics for many major blocks have been captured
    - M language, synthesizable, behavioral models have been written for much of the functionality of the chip set.
    - Some simulation has been started, much remains to be done.
    "
    (Hombre_Presentation_part_2.pdf, page 30)

    So I think it can be safely concluded that there was never any Hombre prototype in hardware.

    [ Edited by Andreas_Wolf 21.07.2017 - 08:26 ]
  • »15.11.16 - 22:19
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    ppcamiga1
    Posts: 202 from 2015/8/23
    "When I knew Hombre better, in 1993-1994, it was two chips, and using the PCI bus and a PC-industry GPIO for all of the basic I/O stuff. "

    "Some simulation has been started, much remains to be done."

    It depends what simulation means.

    So I think it can be safely concluded that there was unfinished Hombre prototype in hardware.
  • »19.07.17 - 17:16
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10926 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> "- Schematics for many major blocks have been captured"
    >> "- M language, synthesizable, behavioral models have been written
    >> for much of the functionality of the chip set.
    "
    >> "- Some simulation has been started, much remains to be done."
    >> [...]
    >> So I think it can be safely concluded that there was never any Hombre prototype
    >> in hardware.

    > It depends what simulation means.

    Just use Google:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=%22m+language%22+simulation+%22mentor%22

    > So I think it can be safely concluded that there was unfinished Hombre prototype
    > in hardware.

    I for one tend to believe Dr. Hepler when he says there was no more than incomplete simulation, which means no actual hardware.
  • »19.07.17 - 21:18
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4883 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    >I for one tend to believe Dr. Hepler when he says there was no more than incomplete simulation, which means no actual hardware.

    +1

    Make that 'I for two'. The fact that it was being simulated, and even then not completely, makes it highly unlikely that there was actual hardware.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »20.07.17 - 12:46
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    ppcamiga1
    Posts: 202 from 2015/8/23
    But You dont know it.

    In this case I rather believe DH that:

    "When I knew Hombre better, in 1993-1994, it was two chips, and using the PCI bus and a PC-industry GPIO for all of the basic I/O stuff. "
  • »21.07.17 - 04:17
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10926 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > In this case I rather believe DH

    AFAIK, Dave Haynie wasn't directly involved in Hombre development. So even if there were conflicting statements about Hombre between Dr. Hepler and Haynie, I'd always believe the main developer over any bystander.

    > that: "When I knew Hombre better, in 1993-1994, it was two chips, and
    > using the PCI bus and a PC-industry GPIO for all of the basic I/O stuff. "

    There doesn't necessarily have to be real hardware for this statement to be true. You can very well implement chips, PCI and GPIO (and anything else, really) purely in schematics, software models and simulation, which is what Dr. Hepler managed to achieve according to his own documents he last updated two weeks before Commodore's bankruptcy.
  • »21.07.17 - 07:16
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4883 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    ppcamiga1 wrote:
    But You dont know it.

    In this case I rather believe DH that:

    "When I knew Hombre better, in 1993-1994, it was two chips, and using the PCI bus and a PC-industry GPIO for all of the basic I/O stuff. "





    I take everything Dave says with a grain of salt myself.
    He has proven he's not beyond speculating or making unfounded statements.
    And frankly, he owes Ralph Schmidt an apology for one of his hearsay statements.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »21.07.17 - 19:32
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    amigadave
    Posts: 2702 from 2006/3/21
    From: Lake Arrowhead...
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Quote:

    ppcamiga1 wrote:
    But You dont know it.

    In this case I rather believe DH that:

    "When I knew Hombre better, in 1993-1994, it was two chips, and using the PCI bus and a PC-industry GPIO for all of the basic I/O stuff. "





    I take everything Dave says with a grain of salt myself.
    He has proven he's not beyond speculating or making unfounded statements.
    And frankly, he owes Ralph Schmidt an apology for one of his hearsay statements.



    Some people believe what they want to believe, no matter what evidence is available contrary to their beliefs. Many former Amiga engineers seem to have issues about what Dave Haynie has done and stated over the years since Commodore went bankrupt. Like Andreas, I believe the documents and statements of Dr Helper, more than anything that Dave Haynie might have said (and I agree that DH owes Ralph Schmidt an apology.
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »22.07.17 - 00:50
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    ppcamiga1
    Posts: 202 from 2015/8/23
    Yes I know, it is big problem for some people, to accept fact that Commodore works on something faster than vampire.
  • »22.07.17 - 08:19
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10926 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > it is big problem for some people, to accept fact that Commodore works
    > on something faster than vampire.

    The final state of Hombre development doesn't have anything to do with Vampire. It's just your weird fixation on Vampire that makes you think otherwise.
  • »22.07.17 - 13:24
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    ppcamiga1
    Posts: 202 from 2015/8/23
    Some people dont accept bitter truth
  • »22.07.17 - 15:03
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10926 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Some people dont accept bitter truth

    Indeed, some people are hesitant to accept the bitter truth that there was no prototype Hombre hardware, even after reading the words of the developer himself.
  • »22.07.17 - 16:02
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
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    Jim
    Posts: 4883 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > Some people dont accept bitter truth

    Indeed, some people are hesitant to accept the bitter truth that there was no prototype Hombre hardware, even after reading the words of the developer himself.


    +1! ;-)

    Hombre, if completed, would have sent the Amiga in a new direction entirely.
    I'm surprised today's purists are so fixated on it.
    And this weird friction on the part of some over the Vampire vs. PPC based hardware baffles me.
    I don't understand why we can't just let the legacy community have their fun.
    Its not a threat (at least from a competitive stance) to our hardware, and they are just trying to push the envelope a little harder.
    We ought to be happy for them, that they're getting this project to the people, not acting like its some over blown contest.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »22.07.17 - 16:25
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    OlafSch
    Posts: 165 from 2011/11/16
    Quote:

    ppcamiga1 schrieb:
    Some people dont accept bitter truth



    and some live in their own world
  • »24.07.17 - 13:41
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    OlafSch
    Posts: 165 from 2011/11/16
    Quote:

    Jim schrieb:
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > Some people dont accept bitter truth

    Indeed, some people are hesitant to accept the bitter truth that there was no prototype Hombre hardware, even after reading the words of the developer himself.


    +1! ;-)

    Hombre, if completed, would have sent the Amiga in a new direction entirely.
    I'm surprised today's purists are so fixated on it.
    And this weird friction on the part of some over the Vampire vs. PPC based hardware baffles me.
    I don't understand why we can't just let the legacy community have their fun.
    Its not a threat (at least from a competitive stance) to our hardware, and they are just trying to push the envelope a little harder.
    We ought to be happy for them, that they're getting this project to the people, not acting like its some over blown contest.



    +1

    the markets and products are very different even though of course many NG users also might be interested in new classic hardware so basically it extends the market
  • »24.07.17 - 13:43
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    ppcamiga1
    Posts: 202 from 2015/8/23
    Olaf Schickelgruber aka Schönweiss is well known powerpc hater.
    Yes We know it, vampire is last hope to be classic wunderwaffe.
    But the truth is, vampire is underpowered, overpriced crap.
  • »29.07.17 - 16:52
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    ppcamiga1
    Posts: 202 from 2015/8/23
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    I don't understand why we can't just let the legacy community have their fun.



    As a unsatisfied, un realized natami customer, I dont agree.
    Where is my wonderfull natami, faster than uae on fast pc from 2008?
    Where is my wonderfull natami, with graphics as fast as PS2?
  • »29.07.17 - 16:57
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    ppcamiga1
    Posts: 202 from 2015/8/23
    Checking, checking, checked. Web archive is still working, version of natami site from 2008 still available.

    [ Edited by ppcamiga1 30.07.2017 - 15:46 ]
  • »30.07.17 - 15:44
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    ppcamiga1
    Posts: 202 from 2015/8/23
    Check on forum.
  • »30.07.17 - 17:16
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    ppcamiga1
    Posts: 202 from 2015/8/23
    natami forum of course
  • »30.07.17 - 17:16
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    ppcamiga1
    Posts: 202 from 2015/8/23
    http://web.archive.org/web/20081218072448/http://www.natami.net:80/qa.htm

    "With SuperAGA and the N68070 softcore, the Amiga Workbench will run on Natami many times faster than it currently does on WinUAE using a fast PC."

    Fast but still affordable PC in 2008 was PC with Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600.
    gunnar von boehn und von munchausen fly very high when state that his classic wunderwaffe will be faster than WinUAE on fast PC from 2008.
  • »30.07.17 - 17:23
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4883 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    ppcamiga1 wrote:
    http://web.archive.org/web/20081218072448/http://www.natami.net:80/qa.htm

    "With SuperAGA and the N68070 softcore, the Amiga Workbench will run on Natami many times faster than it currently does on WinUAE using a fast PC."

    Fast but still affordable PC in 2008 was PC with Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600.
    gunnar von boehn und von munchausen fly very high when state that his classic wunderwaffe will be faster than WinUAE on fast PC from 2008.







    What does any of this prove, except that Gunnar likes hyperbole?
    We already knew that, and usually factor it into consideration of his public statements.

    Yes, UAE still runs faster than most legacy hardware, unless its trying to emulate a PPC system.

    You have one point, but most of your anti-Vampire posts have been tiresome unsupported tirades.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »30.07.17 - 18:12
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10926 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > http://web.archive.org/web/20081218072448/http://www.natami.net:80/qa.htm
    > "With SuperAGA and the N68070 softcore, the Amiga Workbench will run on
    > Natami many times faster than it currently does on WinUAE using a fast PC."

    Thanks.
  • »30.07.17 - 22:10
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