Sorry. Missed that post.

Quote:

> As the OS 4 implementation of the fpu handling should only target one specific cpu there
> should be scope to eventually be more optimized than the generic linux implementation .

e500v2 is e500v2, no matter in which SoC it's used.

Interesting paper of floating point emulation.

http://www.ll.mit.edu/HPEC/agendas/proc08/Day1/11-Day1-PosterDemoA-Spetka-abstract.pdf



[ Edited by Spectre660 21.10.2015 - 10:53 ]

Quote:

It may be that the Varisys people advising Trevor were not able to get early samples of the QorIQ T series chips, where perhaps other board manufacturers could get the early samples on the dates mentioned for their earliest availability. Trevor seemed pretty clear that no matter what dates the T series of chips were announced, or samples released, the actuality of getting samples was a different matter, and they were not available for the design of the Tabor board. I would not be surprised to find out that the design process for the Tabor board was started more than 2, or 2.5 years ago.

I can't speak about any of the rest of the discussion regarding other possible choices at the same time the P1022 was chosen, but like I wrote earlier, it is all water under the bridge now as a commitment to purchase the 1,000 CPU's has been made, so they will have to make the best of that choice to recoup the purchase and design of the Tabor boards.

I think way too much discussion and speculation has been written about the board already, and that users should wait for it to be released before passing judgement on the final product. This really confirms why the MorphOS Dev. Team is so smart about not releasing any information about what they are doing until it is almost finished and ready for users to consume.

> I have specifically asked Acube on their FB page if Sam460cr is still a thing,
> and they said that they are not stopping production and going to make more.

They stick to their word:

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=11415&forum=11

Just heard about the A1222 today.


What were they thinking ???

Can they not find a slower processor?

dude, i think some of you dont get the point.

the situation is not about "slow cpu" vs "faster cpu"

its rather "slow cpu" vs. "nothing at all". so be grateful that at least somethings still coming. we're not a huge community and its not like we can choose everything we dream about. What have you done for the community? maybe thats the question you should ask yourself.

Quote:

Coming to the OS4 community.

>"slow cpu" vs. "nothing at all"

There are better, low cost alternatives.

>What have you done for the community?

Apparently pissed of a goodly portion of it.
And so what. Its going to happen, and it was a bad CPU choice for the design.
One that the flaws were known and were discussed for some time.

Let the OS4 community have it.

MorphOS does not have to support it, we haven't supported every A-eon design, so why worry about a bad design just because its low priced.
I doubt it will be cheaper than lots of the hardware we already have support for.

>> Just heard about the A1222 today. What were they thinking ???
>> Can they not find a slower processor?

> What have you done for the community?

He did this for the Amiga for instance:

http://www.blachford.info/blachtech/

Quote:

That is about the most sensible and relevant remark I have seen in this whole thread.

>> Spectre660 wrote: [...]
>> Trevor [...] seems to be getting advice solely from the very same people who thought
>> targeting a discontinued and criminally underpowered Limebook was a good idea. [...]
>> wasted effort on nonsense such as [...] Timberwolf [...] and this Tabor board doesn't
>> help his market.

> That is about the most sensible and relevant remark I have seen in this whole thread.

I'm not sure whether attributing this part of the remark to Spectre660 is something he endorses ;-)

Quote:
Being a small community doesn't make bad decisions magically good decisions. And the decision to go for an e500v2 based cpu was actually a bad idea.
There are alternatives, with a T104x the cost wouldn't be greater and the outcome way better. And this was all known and clear. Sometimes the projects out of the OS4 world seem to deliberately f*ck it up. Alternatively there my be just a big lack of competence.

Quote:

Yup, "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence." ;)

Guys

For testing I am running Ubuntu 12.04 powerpc32 on a non smp kernel on my Tabor.
So single core, emulated FPU .
This configuration has performance on par with the Sam460ex under Linux for most functions,with Video, Audio and Rendering among the areas that are impacted by the FPU emulation. Mplayer video playback does not work so this is one area were the actual FPU emulation is an issue under Linux.

Quote:

dude, if its not relevant for you, why the f are you then hating about it? whats your problem?

Regarding new hardware there is NO other alternative for MorphOS but A-EON. The Apple hardware is used and old, not efficient in power comsuption vs. speed.
Yeah the fpu is a downside on that specific model, but there are dozens of upsides... Nevertheless you'll get a dualcore system for the same price as the sam.

maybe you should piss off more people, so that we'll never ever see anything new again. I think you would be pretty happy with that right? There is a huge difference between a constructive and destructive approach to things. the first step would be to honour the hard work in the first place, then we can talk about things to improve. Our MorphOS community is so small and the people from the outside are annoyed by the attitude and arrogance of our community. Maybe we should copy some of the spirit thats alive in the OS4 community and be more tolerant towards developers and hardware engineers. I really cant stand that arrogant attitude.

If there are cheaper alternatives, have you contacted A-EON and asked them about their decision? maybe you're judging on a subject your not 100% familiar with. Or are you indicating that those people developing the boards are idiots?

Fact is OS4 users have a large amount of new hardware configurations to choose from. We do not have that possibility.

@Spectre660

Interesting. Do you have some numbers? I love numbers Preferbly the much used "Prometheus" test if you get Mplayer to work.

Quote:

I like that. Added it to my signature.

Quote:

No other alternative than A-eon? I like Trevor and Paul Gentle, but that isn't true.
Before they created their line of PPC boards, we were looking at creating an MPC8610 board (I myself was working with MPC8640/8640 CPUs).

If Trevor wants to sell us a P1022 solution, why not create a community driven project to build a T1024 board?

Old Macs?
If supported, PCI-e G5 PowerMac would actually have some advantages over the X5000 (older gen PCI-e, but with AltiVec enabled processors with comparable or better performance).
And that would cost a boat load less.

Quote:

Maybe we should be sheep. Trevor doesn't have a thin skin and he isn't going anywhere, and btw, I have known him for years and have his private e-mail address. And I have known Paul Gentle at Varisys longer.

I don't want anything to do with 'OS4 sprit'.
The primary source of arrogance and attitude has come from them.

"Honor hard work'?
OK Thanks Frank, Mark, Andre, Jacek, Piru and the rest of our developers.

And no slight to the OS4 team, the Friedens have managed a lot with their limited resources (but I still don't like Ben Hermans).

And A-eon and Varisys? I have been one of there biggest backers, UNTIL NOW.

Because Tabor IS a mistake.

Quote:

I never said that. Paul's team is one of the best in the industry, that is why I was consulting him before the Varisys/A-eon connection was known.
Cheaper alternative? Nope you'd have to spend a whole $10 more for a T10XX CPU.
And we already know those were not available at the beginning of Tabor's design.

Quote:

Simply not true.
Old AmigaOnes use the Artica S chip as does the Pegagos 1.
They never got around to creating a system that eliminated that part like the Pegasos 2 (which, curiously, they support). And they never sold anything as low cost as the Efika.

We didn't support the X1000 because Ben Hermans was involved with A-eon at the time that was created, but we will support the X5000.

And number of Mac we now support is outrageous.

WE have a far larger base of supported equipment than OS4 (outside of legacy support, which come to think of it is where MorphOS started).

Take your anger elsewhere, I won't accept responsibility for it.
It comes from the fact that you are just plain wrong.

And, as I have said repeatedly.
I hope we never support Tabor.

[ Edited by Jim 03.11.2015 - 09:08 ]

well there you have it. nobody said that we should become sheep. it seems as you only know living and thinking in extremes. The board is not the best there is, thats true but you got the answer for yourself. the other CPU was not available at that time, so they probably chose the best alternative for the tabor.

And no, we do NOT have more NEW hardware configurations to chose from. The only new hardware available is the Sam460. The OS4 guys have the Sam440, 460 and X1000 and they're still getting more and more hardware with the X5000 and Tabor. Thats a luxury in such a small market and i do think that its more then fair to honour the people realizing that. WE have OLD and USED Mac Systems besides the Sam460 to choose from. So my original statement that the OS4 guys have more new hardware configs to choose from is true. The Apple hardware is over 10 years old, i mean you're maybe happy with that, but those machines will die sooner or later. And the G5s are monsters when it comes to energy consumption, so being cheaper is quite relative when you put it into time perspective.

It seems as you want to put your anger somewhere. My anger is directed towards our morphos community, because nobody really cares and honours the work of other people. As soon as somebody outside of our world produces anything people start to hate about it. And btw, you dont have to honour our MorphOS team, because they don't care. They develop for themselves.

Just think about it. The OS4 community is pretty supportive and they are very active. I can tell, because thats what i experienced live at the Amiga 30th anniversary party in Neuss. It was crazy. We are not here to win any competition or prize. It's about keeping our hobby and passion alive. And everybody is contributing to that, no matter if its 68k, PPC, OS4, MorphOS, OS3.x, AROS,...

I think that every new hardware and contribution is a plus for the Amiga community. I am an Amiga enthusiast in the first place and thatswhy i like MorphOS, my A1200, A4000 and a lot of stuff which is still being produced for that platform.

Difficult to get exact as not every thing works in all Linux versions on Tabor .
I tried the V8 Benchmark Suite .
http://v8.googlecode.com/svn/data/benchmarks/v7/run.html

V8 Benchmark Suite - version 7
===========================================
Sam460ex Ubuntu Mate 16.04 -

midori 0.5.11

Score: 41.3
Richards: 26.8
DeltaBlue: 19.2
Crypto: 101
RayTrace: 63.9
EarleyBoyer: 3.06
RegExp: 25.9
Splay: 227
NavierStokes: 140
========================================
Sam460ex Ubuntu Mate 16.04 -

Qupzilla 1.8.6

Score: 91.3
Richards: 61.8
DeltaBlue: 34.8
Crypto: 108
RayTrace: 92.9
EarleyBoyer: 192
RegExp: 31.3
Splay: 246
NavierStokes: 151
========================================

Sam460ex AmigaOS 4.1 FE

Odyssey

Score: 29.3
Richards: 10.6
DeltaBlue: 7.18
Crypto: 51.9
RayTrace: 32.1
EarleyBoyer: 75.1
RegExp: 11.3
Splay: 60.8
NavierStokes: 84.3
========================================
V8 Benchmarks
==============================================
Tabor Ubuntu 12.04 non-smp kernel

Midori Midori 0.4.3

Score: 35.4
Richards: 104
DeltaBlue: 64.8
Crypto: 2.53
RayTrace: 29.6
EarleyBoyer: 192
RegExp: 50.8
Splay: 107
NavierStokes: 4.71
===============================================
Tabor Debian 8 PowerPCSPE chroot non-smp kernel

Qupzilla 1.8.6

Score: 139
Richards: 97.0
DeltaBlue: 75.0
Crypto: 133
RayTrace: 163
EarleyBoyer: 339
RegExp: 41.4
Splay: 374
NavierStokes: 165


Quote:


[ Edited by Spectre660 03.11.2015 - 10:49 ]

The supply of X1000s is gone.

So, in the future the OS4 community will have three new systems to choose from, the X5000, the SAM460, and Tabor.

We will have two new systems, the X5000 and the SAM460, and hopefully, no Tabor.

Not much of a difference. One less (bad) choice.

I'm not thinking about the extremes of the situation, I grounded in facts.

And the fact is we don't need Tabor.

It would be better to recommend an older Mac.
Performance wise, they would slap a Tabor board silly.



[ Edited by Jim 03.11.2015 - 11:41 ]

Quote:

The only new hardware available to buy that is supported by OS4 is the SAM460CR, which is also supported by MorphOS.

The X5000 will be supported by both MorphOS and OS4.

So that leaves the Tabor for hardware that will eventually run OS4 but not MorphOS.

http://amigax1000.blogspot.com.au/2015/11/amigaone-x1000-sold-out.html?m=1

Quote:

Yes but at what price? The Tabor has 1.1 Ghz, you could not sell that in normal world, the second core is unused and that will very propably not change. The MorphOS team has made the responsible decision to make a ISA change and up to that point there is a lot of hardware to choose from. AOS will stick to custom PPC hardware forever, at least as long there are any processors to buy (what will certainly be the case for some years). And then it will die together with PPC and still exist as emulated platform. I see no reason to admire the OS4 camp for that decision.

> you'll get a dualcore system for the same price as the sam.

Have prices been revealed yet?

> we can talk about things to improve.

Improving the board by using a more compatible CPU would mean designing a new board from scratch.

> the people from the outside are annoyed by the attitude and arrogance of our community.

You mean people from certain other communities, not from the real outside, right? :-)

> Maybe we should [...] be more tolerant towards developers and hardware engineers.

Calling a bad decision a bad decision has nothing to do with intolerance.

> If there are cheaper alternatives [...]

It's not just about "cheaper", but also about "fully compatible" at the same or slightly higher price (APM PacketPro Mamba), or about "fully compatible" at an even lower price but about a year later (Freescale QorIQ T1).

> Or are you indicating that those people developing the boards are idiots?

The people developing the boards are electrical engineers (from the outside, as you would call it). They have no idea of the specialities of the Amiga software situation, especially not of the constraints regarding legacy code reuse and backwards compatibility in a mostly closed-source market. Even board developers from the "inside" (UltimatePPC) made the same mistake before. It's more about not repeating the much-discussed errors others did before than about idiocy. A-Eon should have known better, or at least the OS4 people advising them.

> OS4 users have a large amount of new hardware configurations to choose from.
> We do not have that possibility.

MorphOS users have the Sam460cr now and the CyrusPlus/X5000 in future. OS4 users have the same plus the hampered Tabor in future. I really do not see any large amount of configurations on the OS4 side, and a loss of Tabor for the MorphOS side should be nothing to shed a tear over.

> No other alternative than A-eon? [...] that isn't true. Before they created
> their line of PPC boards, we were looking at creating an MPC8610 board

When the bounty about the MPC8610-based board to be designed by bplan was drafted in late 2009, the Nemo board was already in development at Varisys for almost one year.

> you'd have to spend a whole $10 more for a T10XX CPU.

Current Freescale prices:

1.2 GHz P1022: 53.17 USD

vs.

1.2 GHz T1013: 31.17 USD
1.2 GHz T1023: 32.81 USD
1.2 GHz T1014: 33.56 USD
1.2 GHz T1024: 33.64 USD
1.4 GHz T1022: 49.22 USD
1.4 GHz T1042: 54.69 USD

As you can see, all T1 chips except the T1042 are cheaper than the P1022.

> they never sold anything as low cost as the Efika.

...and as low performing :-)

> WE have a far larger base of supported equipment than OS4 (outside of legacy support [...]).

Some might call PPC Macs as legacy hardware ;-)