Any news from Neuss
  • jPV
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    jPV
    Posts: 1640 from 2003/2/24
    From: po-RNO
    Quote:

    deka wrote:
    Quote:

    geit wrote:
    If you currently take a look onto your system and count the 68K applications you really need this is more or less nothing and till then it will shrink even further.


    Agree...
    No sense to keep the backward compatibility further. The amount of usable old stuff is very limited. The memory protection/SMP/more RAM gives more value to MOS, than the execution of old stuff.


    For me the biggest hit would come to productivity software side currently. I still use many 68k painting programs (fxPaint, ArtEffect, Photogenics, TVPaint, etc) and office programs (FinalWriter, AmigaWriter, etc). There still aren't any good native programs on those areas, and it would be a huge task to create that kinds of "major" programs from scratch.

    And then I use 68k Magellan2 all the time, but theoretically there could be a working port of it by then :)

    Then there's lack of small native utils in certain areas... where I still use 68k programs. Like mp3 tag editors, virus killers, internet utils (DCTelnet, netmount, RC-ftpd, etc), and few nice shell commands I still use... I have feeling that for some of them there won't be new native versions to fill the gap ever :)

    And one big loss for me would be the loss of 68k filesystem compatibility. I use to prep / copy stuff a lot to Amiga mass storage devices to be used in the real 68k Amigas. It's been so easy and quick to do that when devices just mount to a MorphOS machine automatically.

    And of course loss of ARexx. I don't think the native port of ARexx would come any more probable than it's been for years now. There is Lua now of course, but there are still that many useful Arexx scripts still, and many programs rely on it... unless someone goes and ports them all to Lua :)

    Not sure how many 68k libs, mui classes, devices, etc are still critical too... and something else I'm not thinking now :)
  • »13.10.15 - 12:00
    Profile Visit Website
  • MorphOS Developer
    geit
    Posts: 936 from 2004/9/23
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > if the classic API compatiblity sails over the cliff most of the stuff will require
    > more or less just a recompile.

    Doesn't API incompatibility imply source code incompatibility?


    No.

    Parts where software hacked/accessed system structures need to be rewritten for sure, but beside that it simply should work.

    Quote:

    jPV wrote:
    Not sure how many 68k libs, mui classes, devices, etc are still critical too... and something else I'm not thinking now :)



    Well, those 68k mui classes, devices and etc will be obsolete when not using 68k applications anymore. Virus scanner? Seriously?

    Sure we have no proper office applications. But those are even so old that a simple UAE can deal with them. Still not need to invent some PPC emulator.

    However. You don´t know what will be available in 2017. Maybe those gabs are already closed by then. Who knows.

    [ Edited by geit 13.10.2015 - 17:31 ]
  • »13.10.15 - 12:50
    Profile
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Yasu
    Posts: 1724 from 2012/3/22
    From: Stockholm, Sweden
    There is one solution to the compatability problem: keep using your PPC MorphOS alongside your NG MorphOS until there is enough new software to take the place of the old. Your old computer is not going to stop working with an ISA shift.
    AMIGA FORUM - Hela Sveriges Amigatidning!
    AMIGA FORUM - Sweden's Amiga Magazine!

    My MorphOS blog
  • »13.10.15 - 13:09
    Profile Visit Website
  • jPV
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    jPV
    Posts: 1640 from 2003/2/24
    From: po-RNO
    Quote:

    geit wrote:
    Virus scanner? Seriously?



    Yeah, I go through a lot of old Amiga stuff occasionally and it's a LOT quicker scan them on MorphOS than on a real Amiga :) Not to talk having much more storage on MorphOS machines...


    Quote:

    Yasu wrote:
    There is one solution to the compatability problem: keep using your PPC MorphOS alongside your NG MorphOS until there is enough new software to take the place of the old. Your old computer is not going to stop working with an ISA shift.


    In a more optimal situation it'd be nice to see new general features still updated to PPC MorphOS alongside the NG version. That way users could happily continue using the PPC version, if old compatibility matters more than those features NG would offer, but maybe it's too demanding with the resources available...

    [ Edited by jPV 13.10.2015 - 14:24 ]
  • »13.10.15 - 13:18
    Profile Visit Website
  • Leo
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Leo
    Posts: 416 from 2003/8/18
    Quote:


    There is one solution to the compatability problem: keep using your PPC MorphOS alongside your NG MorphOS until there is enough new software to take the place of the old. Your old computer is not going to stop working with an ISA shift.


    I thought the whole concept of MorphOS was to implement something like MacOSX did where you could run the classic OS inside a sandbox alongside the new modern OS.

    Wasn't it the purpose of the ABox ?

    If that's the case, as long as the OS runs on a PowerPC CPU, there is no compatibility problem. Of course, if running on x64, we can forget it.
    Nothing hurts a project more than developers not taking the time to let their community know what is going on.
  • »13.10.15 - 13:49
    Profile Visit Website
  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Jeckel
    Posts: 133 from 2007/3/11
    Quote:

    geit wrote:
    Well, those 68k mui classes, devices and etc will be obsolete when not using 68k applications anymore. [...]



    I'm afraid you are a bit optimistic.
    Dropping all these 68k stuff will be for sure a drawback for most users. :)

    We will have to re-implement a lot of libraries and small tools. Till now it was not done because the 68k versions did the job and performance was not an issue; but in case of 68k compatbility drop, a lot of small tools/libs will have to be re-done from scratch.

    Not a big deal, but a lot of work.
  • »13.10.15 - 13:51
    Profile
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    TheMagicM
    Posts: 1164 from 2003/6/17
    Quote:

    geit wrote:

    Well, i guess we can say that any port of that kind is years away and i really don´t think we need any PPC or 68K emulation then. In fact with all the 64bit, endian, memprotection involved a full size emulatior would be required to run old stuff, but for what?



    I'm not concerned with backwards compatibility, it was more a question of what will we use for our old stuff.

    I'm all for any version of MorphOS that gives us the ability to move forward and make it easier for software to get ported or developed for this system. If it means leaving PPC, so be it. PPC *now* is ok, but in the long run is a hindrance. x86 gives us the raw power and access to much cheaper hardware.
  • »13.10.15 - 13:57
    Profile Visit Website
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1391 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    TheMagicM wrote:
    I'm not concerned with backwards compatibility, it was more a question of what will we use for our old stuff.



    We'll get UAE quickly for sure. Hopefully a proper port of WinUAE will be easier. WinUAE would give us everything we need up to OS3.9 and Pup/Wup. Most important MorphOS native software can be recompiled. There will be a handful lost, but the gain certainly will be worth it.

    PowerMac G5 w/MorphOS was the logical conclusion for me as an ex-Amiga user. They accomplished pretty much everything I wanted out of an "Amiga" over the years. The short time I owned a CyberstormPPC left me longing for exactly what we have now. Besides wanting a few things polished up in support of the G5, I think the whole PPC thing is played out. We need to get out of this sandbox and into the major league. I don't quite understand the left turn into OS4 hardware land, but this is their baby and they haven't disappointed yet. Hopefully this left turn doesn't last long and we get back on the highway.

    Not as much a direct reply to you TheMagicM, more of a coffee fueled ramble :-)
  • »13.10.15 - 14:28
    Profile
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    TheMagicM
    Posts: 1164 from 2003/6/17
    Quote:

    redrumloa wrote:
    Quote:

    TheMagicM wrote:
    I'm not concerned with backwards compatibility, it was more a question of what will we use for our old stuff.



    We'll get UAE quickly for sure. Hopefully a proper port of WinUAE will be easier. WinUAE would give us everything we need up to OS3.9 and Pup/Wup. Most important MorphOS native software can be recompiled. There will be a handful lost, but the gain certainly will be worth it.

    PowerMac G5 w/MorphOS was the logical conclusion for me as an ex-Amiga user. They accomplished pretty much everything I wanted out of an "Amiga" over the years. The short time I owned a CyberstormPPC left me longing for exactly what we have now. Besides wanting a few things polished up in support of the G5, I think the whole PPC thing is played out. We need to get out of this sandbox and into the major league. I don't quite understand the left turn into OS4 hardware land, but this is their baby and they haven't disappointed yet. Hopefully this left turn doesn't last long and we get back on the highway.

    Not as much a direct reply to you TheMagicM, more of a coffee fueled ramble :-)



    I agree. I love my G5 with MorphOS. Best damn money I've spent on a computer in a long time. Moving to X86 will put MorphOS into territory covered by other "free" OS's like SkyOS for example.
  • »13.10.15 - 15:44
    Profile Visit Website
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10923 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > "free" OS's like SkyOS

    Hasn't SkyOS been dead for years?

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=11342&start=74
  • »13.10.15 - 15:57
    Profile
  • jPV
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    jPV
    Posts: 1640 from 2003/2/24
    From: po-RNO
    Quote:

    TheMagicM wrote:
    x86 gives us the raw power and access to much cheaper hardware.


    I'm not sure about that cheaper. Can it get much cheaper where we are now? :) Ok, for new computers maybe, but used and as fast as new systems are bargain currently. In any case, remember that it's been said, that the "NG" will be some fixed hardware still even on x86. You can't expect that any machine would magically work then. Probably some newer x86 Macs, which might not be that cheap still.
  • »13.10.15 - 17:24
    Profile Visit Website
  • MorphOS Developer
    geit
    Posts: 936 from 2004/9/23
    Quote:

    Cego wrote:

    - MorphOS PowerUp is at version 3.8 and if it will ever be released and when is not decided yet



    MorphOS on PowerUp is 3.10 as well.

    We just did not update as we wanted to show the system running and not spent all day to fix a broken update installation.
  • »13.10.15 - 17:28
    Profile
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1391 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    jPV wrote:
    You can't expect that any machine would magically work then. Probably some newer x86 Macs, which might not be that cheap still.



    No, this line of thinking needs to stop. The MorphOS Team has stated repeatedly it will certainly NOT be Mac X86 hardware. It makes no sense to target Mac.
  • »13.10.15 - 17:32
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10923 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Probably some newer x86 Macs

    "When MorphOS gets ported to AMD64, we will not be supporting Macs. AMD64 Macs have all the wrong hardware for that to make any sense."
    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=11137&forum=11&start=6
  • »13.10.15 - 17:50
    Profile
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Yasu
    Posts: 1724 from 2012/3/22
    From: Stockholm, Sweden
    Blog about Neuss: https://morphosuser.wordpress.com/2015/10/13/amiga30-at-neuss-and-commodore-fan-club-japan/

    It's not indepth in any way but enjoy :-)
    AMIGA FORUM - Hela Sveriges Amigatidning!
    AMIGA FORUM - Sweden's Amiga Magazine!

    My MorphOS blog
  • »13.10.15 - 18:14
    Profile Visit Website
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    connor
    Posts: 531 from 2007/7/29
    @ Yasu: top read! Thanks for this.
  • »13.10.15 - 18:34
    Profile
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    TheMagicM
    Posts: 1164 from 2003/6/17
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > "free" OS's like SkyOS

    Hasn't SkyOS been dead for years?

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=11342&start=74


    yea, but gets my point across.
  • »13.10.15 - 18:56
    Profile Visit Website
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    NewSense
    Posts: 866 from 2012/11/10
    From: Manchester, UK/GB
    Quote:

    ASiegel wrote:
    Yes.

    People were able to test it at the Amiga 30 event in Neuss, Germany. MorphOS developer Frank Mariak had spent a considerable amount of time before the show to ensure that it could be shown.

    I thought I remembered Frank mentioning that he was in contact with Deron about finishing a working MorphOS version 5.x.x.x of Pagestream, but that has all been kept very hush-hush for the time it has taken for it to get to this point.

    Good news indeed, as far as I am concerned, and probably for many, many other Amiga users who have migrated to MorphOS, and still use Pagestream. It was a great program then, and hopefully will be again. ;-)

    I still use Pagestream v4.1.5.6 Pro a lot on MorphOS under 68k emulation with Trance, but a native MorphOS version 5.x.x.x of Pagestream, with all the bugs that were so prevalent on the Windows, and Amiga releases will be a real PLUS for MorphOS.

    Thanks a lot Frank, and Deron, for persisting with re-invigorating this software back into life, after such a lot of inactivity. :bloons:

    I now am really a great deal more optimistic it will actually see the 'light-of-day'. 8-D
    MacMini 1.5GHz,10,2,64MB VRAM,1GB,Airport, Bluetooth,A1016 Keyboard,T-RB22 Mouse,DVD-RW-DL+CD-RW,Iomega MiniMax,Belkin 6 port 3 x Firewire/3 x, USB2, MorphOS 3.12, Mac OSX 10.4/10.5, A1138+A1139 PwrBk MOS v3.12,Model 5,8/5,9, & PowerMac G5 2.3GHz(DP)
  • »13.10.15 - 20:50
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10923 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > a native MorphOS version 5.x.x.x of Pagestream, with all the bugs that were so
    > prevalent on the Windows, and Amiga releases will be a real PLUS for MorphOS.

    ;-)
  • »13.10.15 - 21:20
    Profile
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Everblue
    Posts: 162 from 2004/1/6
    Oh so it is happening. Niiice! Any screenshots?
  • »14.10.15 - 05:59
    Profile
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    amiga4001
    Posts: 433 from 2006/11/16
    From: The Netherlands
    Yes !Pagestream.
    That's a program I will buy very usefull.
  • »14.10.15 - 06:31
    Profile
  • Moderator
    guruman
    Posts: 455 from 2003/7/22
    I appreciate Yasu's report, and I really know how it is like when you are at a show with your own gear, I am just surprised that nobody else was able to give us a more comprehensive report so far... When I met Frank and Mark in the past I had the chance to talk quite a lot, and made some (I think) nice reports, and now... there were a dozen or so of MorphOS developers, things were shown (like PageStream 5) and mentioned, and people argue more about new slow and expensive motherboards announcements that are completely MorphOS unrelated...
    Actually, I would be more interested to know about the newer gfx board support mentioned here and there (new models? 2D and 3D acceleration? Overlay?) and other improvement in the OS we can expect in the foreseeable future, and I am pretty sure, from past experience, that the team members if asked would have gladly spilled some beans. ;)

    Kind regards,
    Andrea

    [ Edited by guruman 15.10.2015 - 01:06 ]
  • »15.10.15 - 01:05
    Profile
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Yasu
    Posts: 1724 from 2012/3/22
    From: Stockholm, Sweden
    @gurumam

    Yeah, I wish that I did a better job myself.
    AMIGA FORUM - Hela Sveriges Amigatidning!
    AMIGA FORUM - Sweden's Amiga Magazine!

    My MorphOS blog
  • »15.10.15 - 07:31
    Profile Visit Website
  • ASiegel
    Posts: 1214 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    Quote:

    guruman wrote:
    I am just surprised that nobody else was able to give us a more comprehensive report so far... When I met Frank and Mark in the past I had the chance to talk quite a lot, and made some (I think) nice reports, and now... there were a dozen or so of MorphOS developers, things were shown (like PageStream 5) and mentioned

    Just shows: If you want something to get done right, you have got to do it yourself ;-)

    Quote:

    and people argue more about new slow and expensive motherboards announcements that are completely MorphOS unrelated...

    Even worse: Unreleased hardware that has not even been formally announced yet :-)
  • »15.10.15 - 08:46
    Profile
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1391 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    ASiegel wrote:
    Even worse: Unreleased hardware that has not even been formally announced yet :-)




    Even worse yet, people being upset at discussion of hardware demonstrated by a commercial entity at a computer show!
  • »15.10.15 - 13:45
    Profile