How to gain more programmers from outside sources?
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2698 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    I would just be satisfied with one extra bit (moving from 31 bit to 32 bit addressing).


    If breaking from 31-bit, then why stop at 32-bit? To have the same disadvantages as going 64-bit but less advantages?

    Quote:

    it would suck not having SMP under a version of PPC MorphOS.


    Why? To have the same disadvantages as going x86 but less advantages?
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »21.08.15 - 19:48
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4955 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    I would just be satisfied with one extra bit (moving from 31 bit to 32 bit addressing).


    If breaking from 31-bit, then why stop at 32-bit? To have the same disadvantages as going 64-bit but less advantages?

    Quote:

    it would suck not having SMP under a version of PPC MorphOS.


    Why? To have the same disadvantages as going x86 but less advantages?



    Disadvantages?
    Like compatibility with my current hardware, the possibility of boxing in legacy apps, etc?
    Those "disadvantages"?

    Yes, as I have said before, even if we fork a branch to X64, I like to see the developers consider those advantages in the PPC version.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »21.08.15 - 22:12
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2698 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:

    Disadvantages?
    Like compatibility with my current hardware, the possibility of boxing in legacy apps, etc?
    Those "disadvantages"?


    After the legacy cord has been cut, legacy apps will either face to be boxed-in or ported. This no matter if it's PPC or x86, the "only" difference being that the advantage upside for x86 is huge, and the advantages speaking for PPC is, what... that you already have a machine? Same for addressable memory, a feature like virtual memory makes so much more sense in a 64-bit memory space than a 32-bit, and the only thing speaking in favor would again be that you already have a 32-bit machine? And that was just the addressable memory space of it, then we have the rest of the 64-bit computing benefits...

    Quote:

    Yes, as I have said before, even if we fork a branch to X64, I like to see the developers consider those advantages in the PPC version.


    A fork instead of a migration is perhaps plausible... But wouldn't the strengths of the PPC line be exactly the "legacy cord", the point in using it. The Amiga3.1 environment, API, endianness etc. Highest possible compatibility always being a priority. The possibility to run the Amiga legacy stuff native on MorphOS mixed with todays PPC MorphOS apps. Add SMP, 64-bit etc to this, and you will have destroyed this benefit and turned the PPC fork into a cripled wannabe of the so much better x86 fork, no x86 advantages and no "legacy" advantage either. Better let the PPC fork be untouched from "new stuff" IMHO, solid legacy support is what that fork is and will be about.
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »21.08.15 - 23:12
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    In_Correct
    Posts: 244 from 2012/10/14
    From: DFW, TX, USA
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:

    Disadvantages?
    Like compatibility with my current hardware, the possibility of boxing in legacy apps, etc?
    Those "disadvantages"?


    After the legacy cord has been cut, legacy apps will either face to be boxed-in or ported. This no matter if it's PPC or x86, the "only" difference being that the advantage upside for x86 is huge, and the advantages speaking for PPC is, what... that you already have a machine? Same for addressable memory, a feature like virtual memory makes so much more sense in a 64-bit memory space than a 32-bit, and the only thing speaking in favor would again be that you already have a 32-bit machine? And that was just the addressable memory space of it, then we have the rest of the 64-bit computing benefits...

    Quote:

    Yes, as I have said before, even if we fork a branch to X64, I like to see the developers consider those advantages in the PPC version.


    A fork instead of a migration is perhaps plausible... But wouldn't the strengths of the PPC line be exactly the "legacy cord", the point in using it. The Amiga3.1 environment, API, endianness etc. Highest possible compatibility always being a priority. The possibility to run the Amiga legacy stuff native on MorphOS mixed with todays PPC MorphOS apps. Add SMP, 64-bit etc to this, and you will have destroyed this benefit and turned the PPC fork into a cripled wannabe of the so much better x86 fork, no x86 advantages and no "legacy" advantage either. Better let the PPC fork be untouched from "new stuff" IMHO, solid legacy support is what that fork is and will be about.


    IMHO, The PPC Fork should reflect The X64 Fork as well as reflect The ARM Fork And the MIPS Fork.

    I am aware that multiple forks are not possible.

    But beginning with The PPC Fork, the advantage of "already having a machine" is reasonable. I am curious to see a MorphOS fully supported 64 bit multi core PPC device. :-)
    :-) I Support Quark Microkernel. :-D
  • »21.08.15 - 23:57
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4955 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    In_Correct wrote:
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:

    Disadvantages?
    Like compatibility with my current hardware, the possibility of boxing in legacy apps, etc?
    Those "disadvantages"?


    After the legacy cord has been cut, legacy apps will either face to be boxed-in or ported. This no matter if it's PPC or x86, the "only" difference being that the advantage upside for x86 is huge, and the advantages speaking for PPC is, what... that you already have a machine? Same for addressable memory, a feature like virtual memory makes so much more sense in a 64-bit memory space than a 32-bit, and the only thing speaking in favor would again be that you already have a 32-bit machine? And that was just the addressable memory space of it, then we have the rest of the 64-bit computing benefits...

    Quote:

    Yes, as I have said before, even if we fork a branch to X64, I like to see the developers consider those advantages in the PPC version.


    A fork instead of a migration is perhaps plausible... But wouldn't the strengths of the PPC line be exactly the "legacy cord", the point in using it. The Amiga3.1 environment, API, endianness etc. Highest possible compatibility always being a priority. The possibility to run the Amiga legacy stuff native on MorphOS mixed with todays PPC MorphOS apps. Add SMP, 64-bit etc to this, and you will have destroyed this benefit and turned the PPC fork into a cripled wannabe of the so much better x86 fork, no x86 advantages and no "legacy" advantage either. Better let the PPC fork be untouched from "new stuff" IMHO, solid legacy support is what that fork is and will be about.


    IMHO, The PPC Fork should reflect The X64 Fork as well as reflect The ARM Fork And the MIPS Fork.

    I am aware that multiple forks are not possible.

    But beginning with The PPC Fork, the advantage of "already having a machine" is reasonable. I am curious to see a MorphOS fully supported 64 bit m
    ulti core PPC device. :-)

    Thanks, since we already support one 64bit system (the G5) and adoption of another has been announced (the X5000), I too would like to see some support of the features these machines allow.
    And, no, this would NOT have to violate compatibility because it does not have to be carried out within Abox.
    And there is nothing preventing code running outside of Abox from working with code running inside Abox.
    So the breaking compatibility argument is not valid.
    Certainly this is a more difficult course than a clean slate OS, and I would still support an X64 fork.
    But really, even with a move to X64, does anyone think PPC MorphOS will just disappear?
    With its current licensed base, even without further development I would expect to see our legacy systems still in use for many years.
    So why not exploit features we already have in our current hardware?
    My G5 has 6GB of unused address space and one unused processor, a PCIe G5 or the X5000 could offer up to three unused cores.

    Let me run code outside Abox, and I can prove what could be done without ditching our legacy OS.

    [ Edited by Jim 22.08.2015 - 12:08 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »22.08.15 - 00:47
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11444 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > there is nothing preventing code running outside of Abox from working with code
    > running inside Abox.

    I guess this strongly depends on what "code working with code" is to mean in technical detail.

    > My G5 has 6GB of unused address space

    So a 33-bit processor? ;-) Really, 64-bit addressing means 16 EiB address space.
  • »22.08.15 - 05:42
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4955 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > there is nothing preventing code running outside of Abox from working with code
    > running inside Abox.

    I guess this strongly depends on what "code working with code" is to mean in technical detail.

    > My G5 has 6GB of unused address space

    So a 33-bit processor? ;-) Really, 64-bit addressing means 16 EiB address space.


    As to the first point, yes this "code working with code" idea may require some enhancement to Quark.
    Since there is zero documentation on the kernel, its hard to say how well the kernel could support operations outside of Abox (or in a 64 bit address space).
    As to your second point, yes the processor is 64 bit, but the G5 only supports 8GB of memory. 8GB minus to 2GB used by MorphOS leaves 6GB for other tasks.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »22.08.15 - 14:26
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2698 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    Really, 64-bit addressing means 16 EiB address space.

    the G5 only supports 8GB of memory. 8GB minus to 2GB used by MorphOS leaves 6GB for other tasks.


    Surely this is a limitation for physical RAM, yes? But with 64-bit address space in OS and virtual memory, this will expand over hdd/ssd, right? And a lot more than 32-bit, right?
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »22.08.15 - 16:50
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    amigadave
    Posts: 2789 from 2006/3/21
    From: Northern Calif...
    Any transition to x64, or ARM will be extremely difficult and may not survive beyond just a proof of concept. It will all depend on how many applications, utilities and games get ported to the new OS and how quickly developers adopt the switch. Having better tools to develop with on the new OS will be critical to convincing programmers to create new software, or port existing software to this NG MorphOS on x64, or ARM.

    Do we automatically gain better development tools by switching to x64? I don't think so, but maybe it will be easier to adapt some set of existing development tools already in use for Windows, Mac (I doubt it), or Linux (more likely, but still doubtful).

    How many users and programmers will choose to remain on the PPC version of MorphOS, further fracturing our tiny community?

    Edit: I am already leaning toward going back to 68k software on a very fast FPGA clone of the original Amiga computers. Since none of the NG Amiga inspired platforms are ever going to catch up with mainstream OSes, all of them will remain frozen in a "Hobby" status, IMO. Since they will be nothing more than a hobby, why not just use and develop 68k software on a really fast 68k FPGA system? Many users consider coding for 68k to be easier, or what they already know from the past. Of course this option will not be appealing to the more advanced programmers who are well past and over coding for a discontinued processor, but for some of us, coding for the Motorola 68k Amiga platform is still a perfect hobby target (and so much more interesting when it can run fast enough to compete with slow PPC processors).

    [ Edited by amigadave 22.08.2015 - 09:26 ]
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »22.08.15 - 18:03
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4955 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    amigadave wrote:...How many users and programmers will choose to remain on the PPC version of MorphOS, further fracturing our tiny community?


    Personally, I would prefer to follow both paths.
    But if it is a matter of choice, I'd stick with our current course.
    It has served us well up until now.

    David, with his purchase of an X1000, has his own priorities.
    And as I have stated, I intend to follow a similar course once the X5000 is introduced.
    I would have considered an X1000, but there is no MorphOS support for it, and the SAM460 is too weak.

    We all know where takemehomegrandma sits, he is fully for the ISA change.
    I won't discount the opinions of the backers of a complete ISA change, except to again point out (as David has) that some of us will remain using PPC MorphOS.

    My opinion is not particularly important here.
    But I am curious about how users and developers feel.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »22.08.15 - 18:19
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  • Caterpillar
    Caterpillar
    Posts: 35 from 2015/6/12
    Surely if we rid the legacy code then MorphOS just becomes yet another lookalike Amiga OS clone.

    If you do that you may as well just merge with AROS and make the best of both worlds.

    A fork would only be possible if the code was open sourced or some form of development license was available.
  • »22.08.15 - 19:39
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2698 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    zerohour wrote:
    Surely if we rid the legacy code then MorphOS just becomes yet another lookalike Amiga OS clone.

    If you do that you may as well just merge with AROS and make the best of both worlds.

    A fork would only be possible if the code was open sourced or some form of development license was available.



    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »22.08.15 - 20:43
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4955 from 2009/1/28
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    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:...MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)


    I'd actually tend to agree with this.
    Its a fact the our developers tend to release software that works.

    And an X64 variant with no legacy support makes sense.
    That can come from UAE.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »22.08.15 - 21:18
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4955 from 2009/1/28
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    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    Really, 64-bit addressing means 16 EiB address space.

    the G5 only supports 8GB of memory. 8GB minus to 2GB used by MorphOS leaves 6GB for other tasks.


    Surely this is a limitation for physical RAM, yes? But with 64-bit address space in OS and virtual memory, this will expand over hdd/ssd, right? And a lot more than 32-bit, right?




    Yes, its just a design feature.
    The architecture is fully 64 bit.

    And a quick question (probably need Andreas to answer this), what are the memory limits for the X5000?
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »22.08.15 - 21:21
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    Zylesea
    Posts: 2017 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:

    amigadave schrieb:
    Since none of the NG Amiga inspired platforms are ever going to catch up with mainstream OSes, all of them will remain frozen in a "Hobby" status, IMO.


    And w/o a clear break this will not change.
    If MorphOS stays on 32Bit ppc it will slowly fade away (gosh, my 1GB runs out of mem pretty quick, even on my 1.5GB Powerbook I have to keep an eye on the RAM, and the cpu is pretty often at 100%, the machines are aging!), if it goes x64 with SMP, full resource tracking and 64Bit support it at east has a chance to survive and gain new users.
    And coming back to the thread title how to gain more developers: It's about good dev tools. One of most critical tools is the actual host system. It must be available, powerful and should not be overprices. These criteria are best met with x64, ARM coming second. PPC is a dead horse. Sad but true, could be different though if someone invests some _serious_ money - any volunteers? No? Then accept reality.

    Not much has changed since I wrote my transition ideas on http://via.i-networx.de/q86.htm and these idea were neither actually new nor revolutionary when i wrote that. And meanwhile about 4 more years have passed. We still have a little time with the old Apple kit, but the world is not waiting, it's continuously spinning.
    --
    http://www.via-altera.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
    ...and Matthias , my friend - RIP
  • »22.08.15 - 23:28
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4955 from 2009/1/28
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    The main difference between your summation and the stated goals of X64 MorphOS is in backward compatibility, Zylesea.
    There will be no Abox as we know it once the ISA change is made as backward compatibility is to be eliminated.

    That said, I don't mind being the user of a successful niche OS.
    When what we might end up with after the ISA change is yet another X86/X64 OS that fails to gain a significant mainstream following.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »23.08.15 - 00:15
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    In_Correct
    Posts: 244 from 2012/10/14
    From: DFW, TX, USA
    Quote:

    amigadave wrote:
    Any transition to x64, or ARM will be extremely difficult and may not survive beyond just a proof of concept. It will all depend on how many applications, utilities and games get ported to the new OS and how quickly developers adopt the switch. Having better tools to develop with on the new OS will be critical to convincing programmers to create new software, or port existing software to this NG MorphOS on x64, or ARM.

    Do we automatically gain better development tools by switching to x64? I don't think so, but maybe it will be easier to adapt some set of existing development tools already in use for Windows, Mac (I doubt it), or Linux (more likely, but still doubtful).

    How many users and programmers will choose to remain on the PPC version of MorphOS, further fracturing our tiny community?

    Edit: I am already leaning toward going back to 68k software on a very fast FPGA clone of the original Amiga computers. Since none of the NG Amiga inspired platforms are ever going to catch up with mainstream OSes, all of them will remain frozen in a "Hobby" status, IMO. Since they will be nothing more than a hobby, why not just use and develop 68k software on a really fast 68k FPGA system? Many users consider coding for 68k to be easier, or what they already know from the past. Of course this option will not be appealing to the more advanced programmers who are well past and over coding for a discontinued processor, but for some of us, coding for the Motorola 68k Amiga platform is still a perfect hobby target (and so much more interesting when it can run fast enough to compete with slow PPC processors).


    Quote:

    amigadave wrote:
    How many users and programmers will choose to remain on the PPC version of MorphOS, further fracturing our tiny community?



    Why will this fracture the tiny community? And why would it remain tiny? Isn't your goal is to attract more developers and users?? For me I would use MorphOS on any platform. If there is more than one Fork of MorphOS, then I will have a PPC morphOS and X64 MorphOS Side By Side. 8-)

    Quote:

    amigadave wrote:
    Edit: I am already leaning toward going back to 68k software on a very fast FPGA clone of the original Amiga computers. Since none of the NG Amiga inspired platforms are ever going to catch up with mainstream OSes, all of them will remain frozen in a "Hobby" status, IMO. Since they will be nothing more than a hobby, why not just use and develop 68k software on a really fast 68k FPGA system? Many users consider coding for 68k to be easier, or what they already know from the past. Of course this option will not be appealing to the more advanced programmers who are well past and over coding for a discontinued processor, but for some of us, coding for the Motorola 68k Amiga platform is still a perfect hobby target (and so much more interesting when it can run fast enough to compete with slow PPC processors).


    I can't believe I did not mention this recently. I had always found alternatives to legacy compatibility:

    1. The Emulator
    2. Reverse Engineer The Software
    3. Make 68K Native MorphOS Fork ( along with the many other MorphOS Forks I have mentioned :-D )

    But I do not wish to see any other MorphOS Fork abandoned in favor of The 68K Version.
    :-) I Support Quark Microkernel. :-D
  • »23.08.15 - 00:50
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4955 from 2009/1/28
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    >...If there is more than one Fork of MorphOS, then I will have a PPC morphOS and X64 MorphOS Side By Side. 8-)

    And, I'd agree with you there, but my own interest in 68K systems is no longer that great. And I don't think they offer enough power to run something like MorphOS.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »23.08.15 - 01:06
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    amigadave
    Posts: 2789 from 2006/3/21
    From: Northern Calif...
    Quote:

    Zylesea wrote:
    And w/o a clear break this will not change.
    If MorphOS stays on 32Bit ppc it will slowly fade away (gosh, my 1GB runs out of mem pretty quick, even on my 1.5GB Powerbook I have to keep an eye on the RAM, and the cpu is pretty often at 100%, the machines are aging!), if it goes x64 with SMP, full resource tracking and 64Bit support it at east has a chance to survive and gain new users.
    And coming back to the thread title how to gain more developers: It's about good dev tools. One of most critical tools is the actual host system. It must be available, powerful and should not be overprices. These criteria are best met with x64, ARM coming second. PPC is a dead horse. Sad but true, could be different though if someone invests some _serious_ money - any volunteers? No? Then accept reality.

    Not much has changed since I wrote my transition ideas on http://via.i-networx.de/q86.htm and these idea were neither actually new nor revolutionary when i wrote that. And meanwhile about 4 more years have passed. We still have a little time with the old Apple kit, but the world is not waiting, it's continuously spinning.


    If the right development tools can be ported to an x64 version of MorphOS, so that it is at least as easy to create new content for such MorphOS as it is to create new programs for Linux, MacOSX, or Windows platforms, then MorphOS will have a chance of increasing it's user base and gaining more programmers. I was just trying to point out that having an x64 version of MorphOS without any software to run, will be just like having AROS, and it's limited amount of compatible software.

    I am not trying to discourage the move to x64, or ARM, I am just wondering if personally I might not be better off going back to 68k for fun, and using Linux, or MacOSX for all serious computing needs. I would be very happy to be proved wrong and find that some day a few years from now, I could ditch my Windows, Linux & MacOSX installations, and use x64 MorphOS full time for all of my computing needs.

    I am just a bit pessimistic that such a future will happen, due to the lack of man power to accomplish all of the work needed to complete such a shift for MorphOS. I hope to be proved wrong.
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »23.08.15 - 03:05
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11444 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >>>>> My G5 has 6GB of unused address space

    >>>> 64-bit addressing means 16 EiB address space.

    >>> the G5 only supports 8GB of memory.

    >> Surely this is a limitation for physical RAM, yes?

    > Yes, its just a design feature. The architecture is fully 64 bit.

    ...which, as I said, means 16 EiB address space, not 8 GiB. Address space is not limited to physical RAM.

    > what are the memory limits for the X5000?

    The QorIQ P5 supports up to 64 GiB RAM, but the limit imposed by the Cyrus board design may be lower. (IIRC, the limit on Nemo/X1000 is lower than what the PA6T can support.)
  • »23.08.15 - 12:22
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4955 from 2009/1/28
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    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:

    > what are the memory limits for the X5000?

    The QorIQ P5 supports up to 64 GB RAM, but the limit imposed by the Cyrus board design may be lower. (IIRC, the limit on Nemo/X1000 is lower than what the PA6T can support.)


    Yes, that would be the real question, what can the board support?
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »23.08.15 - 13:19
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    Jim
    Posts: 4955 from 2009/1/28
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    Back to the topic.

    What would make it easier for me to consider writing code for MorphOS would be full documentation for all functions.
    I know documentation has been mentioned, but what hasn't been stressed is how many features and functions remain undocumented.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »23.08.15 - 13:22
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  • Order of the Butterfly
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    ppcamiga1
    Posts: 210 from 2015/8/23
    amigadave wrote:

    Quote:


    How many users and programmers will choose to remain on the PPC version of MorphOS, further fracturing our tiny community?



    Quote:

    Since none of the NG Amiga inspired platforms are ever going to catch up with mainstream OSes, all of them will remain frozen in a "Hobby" status, IMO. Since they will be nothing more than a hobby, why not just use and develop 68k software on a really fast 68k FPGA system?



    Really fast 68k FPGA systems simply does not exist.
    After many years of lies, many years of cheating people gunnar von boehn and rest of natami/apollo team still have nothing.
    060 is still the fastest 68k.
    And even commodore wanted to change 68k to something faster because 060 was too slow in commodore times.
    We programmers we will continue to use PPC because PPC is still many times faster than 68k.
  • »23.08.15 - 18:44
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  • Order of the Butterfly
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    ppcamiga1
    Posts: 210 from 2015/8/23
    If You want gain more programmers from outside sources,
    You have to offer something light, nice, easy to learn, and open source.

    Amiga OS for x86 should be an open source implementation of BOOPSI, mui, datatypes for linux, Os X and Windows.

    Rest of the OS should be dropped.
  • »23.08.15 - 19:06
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4955 from 2009/1/28
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    Quote:

    ppcamiga1 wrote:
    If You want gain more programmers from outside sources,
    You have to offer something light, nice, easy to learn, and open source.

    Amiga OS for x86 should be an open source implementation of BOOPSI, mui, datatypes for linux, Os X and Windows.

    Rest of the OS should be dropped.






    Well, that would not be Amiga OS, would it.
    Then, we are not talking about Amiga OS, we are talking about MorphOS.
    And yes, for more mainstream use, the X64 fork should shed some legacy features. Although we might disagree on the value of data types.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »23.08.15 - 19:20
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