MorphOS "NG"; is it still happening?
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > There are PowerPC devices with multi core processors [...], such as the PowerMac G5?
    > Doesn't this mean that there could be PowerMac G5 with Multi Core Processors out
    > there with MorphOS installed onto them, but not supporting the processors??

    Yes, and PowerMac G4. Not really multicore processors (apart from the PPC970MP in the last PowerMac G5), but multiple processors, which makes no difference compared to multicore processor from OS point of view.

    > and / or port it to the MiniMig, if you desire the native 68K software support,
    > with no need for emulator.

    I still think that MorphOS for m68k wouldn't make sense.

    > Didn't I read somewhere in these threads there are new Hardwares that all have
    > multple processors?

    Yes, https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=16&topic_id=10057&start=64

    > I'd like an ARM or MIPS support

    I remember the idea of MIPS support being debated in that short thread of yours, with not much agreement, to say the least:

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=10128&forum=3 ;-)

    > I would like to see MorphOS pre-installed onto hardware.

    I remember some boastful promises from the past regarding this, which amounted to hot air only :

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=9418&forum=11
  • »15.11.14 - 11:19
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I think MorphOs is fine and there is no real need for MorphOS NG. You could redesign
    > the complete OS, add memory protection, 64 bits support etc, but what would you (user)
    > do differently after that?

    Reboot less often? :-)

    > missing is decent task management (if an application really hangs and ignores a
    > break signal, having to restart the system is so 1970)

    That's what memory protection with resource tracking would be good for.

    > Its a choice to adept or not adept good things from other systems.

    ...which goes along with the choice to become incompatible or not with the current MorphOS and transparent m68k binary support.

    > Do we really need more and better applications? Obviously not

    I think more and better applications are always fine, and I'm sure most actual MorphOS users do agree with me.

    > So why change the engine of the car, if nobody is really going to drive 120 Mph afterwards.

    Because the engine would have to be restarted less often :-)
  • »15.11.14 - 11:40
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  • Caterpillar
    Caterpillar
    Roland
    Posts: 36 from 2013/2/10
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > I think MorphOs is fine and there is no real need for MorphOS NG. You could redesign
    > the complete OS, add memory protection, 64 bits support etc, but what would you (user)
    > do differently after that?

    Reboot less often? :-)

    > missing is decent task management (if an application really hangs and ignores a
    > break signal, having to restart the system is so 1970)

    That's what memory protection with resource tracking would be good for.

    > Its a choice to adept or not adept good things from other systems.

    ...which goes along with the choice to become incompatible or not with the current MorphOS and transparent m68k binary support.

    > Do we really need more and better applications? Obviously not

    I think more and better applications are always fine, and I'm sure most actual MorphOS users do agree with me.

    > So why change the engine of the car, if nobody is really going to drive 120 Mph afterwards.

    Because the engine would have to be restarted less often :-)


    Although it might be very 1970 :) Its a cozy nostalgic thing, to restart. :)
    Yup. Of course we can dream about things that would make MorphOS so much better, but it would stay a dream. In the end: people and money are required to make these dreams come true.
  • »15.11.14 - 12:07
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Yasu
    Posts: 1724 from 2012/3/22
    From: Stockholm, Sweden
    @Roland

    Or passion. Look at Linux the early years or MorphOS up until now.

    [ Edited by Yasu 15.11.2014 - 15:19 ]
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  • »15.11.14 - 13:18
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    minator
    Posts: 365 from 2003/3/28
    Quote:

    bigfoot wrote:


    Hi Bigfoot!

    Quote:



    <snip>

    Two major such limitations are the lack of 64 bit support and the lack of SMP support.

    32 bit CPUs are between being outphased and completely dead already, so staying stuck in 32 bit land is not a real possibility. Modern CPUs, with the exception of some really low-end chips, are all at least dual core, and many have 4 cores or more.

    An OS that doesn't support this will also be firmly stuck in the past.


    A 32-bit quad core processor will cost you all of $4 these days - and that's the public price.
    There are still duals which they must be near giving away.

    Expect these to be phased out in favour of 64-bit parts very rapidly. They're only starting to appear now in high end devices but they'll be low end in no time.

    That said, at least for now, all the ARM 64-bit cores are capable of running in 32 bit mode and I believe this is also true for x86.

    Quote:

    To answer the question of "is it still happening": No one, or at least I believe so, on the MorphOS team thinks there's a future in PowerPC on the desktop. That makes the path forward pretty clear: Adapt or die. The only question is how long it will take, given our rather limited resources.


    Interesting, Hyperion pretty much said they want to stay on PowerPC systems because they'll feel more exclusive.
  • »17.11.14 - 00:37
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Hyperion pretty much said they want to stay on PowerPC systems because they'll
    > feel more exclusive.

    Do you have a recent quote for the "more exclusive" part?
  • »17.11.14 - 08:33
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    minator
    Posts: 365 from 2003/3/28
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > Hyperion pretty much said they want to stay on PowerPC systems because they'll
    > feel more exclusive.

    Do you have a recent quote for the "more exclusive" part?


    It was in a thread on Amigaworld pretty recently.
    He didn't say that exactly, maybe about more having something nobody else has.

    I got the impression that they have a very limited clientele and they're perfectly happy about it.They don't seem the least bit interested in growing their market ...but then, that's been the case for years.
  • »17.11.14 - 20:36
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >>> Hyperion pretty much said they want to stay on PowerPC systems because they'll
    >>> feel more exclusive.

    >> Do you have a recent quote for the "more exclusive" part?

    > It was in a thread on Amigaworld pretty recently. He didn't say that exactly,
    > maybe about more having something nobody else has.

    Yes, I think I remember the statement from three weeks ago:

    "Personally, having a CPU that is only used in guided missiles such as on the AmigaOne X1000 and of which only a few thousand were ever produced, and running AmigaOS 4.x on it, appeals to me."
    http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=39471&forum=7&start=80#743038

    > They don't seem the least bit interested in growing their market

    I think the announced reduction of the OS4 price to one fourth of the current price speaks another language. This will be especially interesting for WinUAE/FS-UAE users.
  • »17.11.14 - 21:20
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    minator
    Posts: 365 from 2003/3/28
    To get back on topic...

    A change like this isn't going to be easy.
    You essentially need a new operating system and that's a huge job.
    The question is how can this be done without taking years.

    I guess the only sensible way to keep backwards compatibility is to create a PowerPC emulator of some form.
    I worked fine for Apple but theirs was created externally.

    Then it gets really interesting - and complicated.
    How much of the Amiga/MorphOS API can be used?
    Can libraries be used to hide the lower level changes.
    Can you create an OS that enables you to port existing apps without too much pain?

    More importantly can you use other existing work from other open source OSs - even if it's just a stop gap.

    Haiku started with the NewOS kernel and components from BeOS. The BeOS parts have long since been replaced but it meant they could get a functioning system quicker.

    OTOH they have also suffered feature creep to the point that they've never done a full release - don't fall into that trap!

    Then there is the thorny problem of which architecture to port to. If you go ARM which version?
    Hint: Go 64 bit ...it'll save a load of hassle, though I suspect you know this ...and look into LLVM/Clang.

    Of course once you're up and running you'll have en entirely new problem: Expect lots of processor cores, but don't expect them all to be the same.
  • »17.11.14 - 21:28
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