Lack of European response to new Russian sponsored agres
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1109 from 2013/5/24
    From: Nederland
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    And...the EU gets around to some slightly more serious sanctions today.
    My apologies to my European friends for doubting your convictions.

    And to those still backing the current Russian lead hostilities, you are shameless.


    Backing actual Nazis - not neo-Nazis but genuine Nazis that butchered Ukrainians and Jews in the 40's - is shameful Jim.

    You get your "facts" from your mainstream media. The same media that lied about Saddam's WMD's. The same media that lies about the genocide of Palestinians, the same media that lies about pretty much everything. The same media that lies about Syria. Could it be possible they lie about whatever the power-crazed psychopaths that own these outlets tell them to?

    Americans always need to have an enemy to hate, whether it be socialists, Muslims, Russians or the French. "Freedom fries" being a perfect example of the ridiculous propaganda that the American public is fed which they blindly follow.

    History is repeating itself. http://youtu.be/UaaiTZk6Dig
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  • »26.07.14 - 10:48
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11720 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Backing actual Nazis - not neo-Nazis but genuine Nazis that butchered
    > Ukrainians and Jews in the 40's

    People who were 20 years old in 1945 are 90 years old today, if not dead already. Something doesn't seem to add up here.
  • »26.07.14 - 11:38
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Yasu
    Posts: 1724 from 2012/3/22
    From: Stockholm, Sweden
    Why do we talk geopolitics on a MorphOS forum? Can't we just lock this thread and be done with it?
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  • »26.07.14 - 12:13
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4968 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Yasu wrote:
    Why do we talk geopolitics on a MorphOS forum? Can't we just lock this thread and be done with it?


    Sorry Johannes,
    I brought it up as it was one of the few ways I could directly engage Europeans about something I consider quite important.

    As discussion is vital to this issue, I would hope the thread remains open.

    And I am glad someone else brought up WWII as the comparison is valid (after all, the Russians did invade Poland, and thus greatly enlarged that conflict).

    Nick - I don't hate the Russians, I just don't have much respect for their leader and his interest in fostering conflicts in neighboring countries.
    You, more than others here, ought to know I don't address people via demographics.
    If I didn't place some trust in specific Russians I never would have sold items to them via Ebay (as there is no tracking to Russian destinations).

    @ Megander "Up yours then"? - Really? Is THAT the best you can do?
    Frankly, isn't it more like up the Ukranian's, up everyone who was on that plane (AND their relatives)?

    As everyone ought to remember, the Russians like raping those they occupy.

    Again, I salute the leaders of the EU for having the balls to stick to their convictions.



    [ Edited by Jim 26.07.2014 - 05:43 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »26.07.14 - 12:34
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11720 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Why do we talk geopolitics on a MorphOS forum?

    Do you?

    > Can't we just lock this thread and be done with it?

    Why? The description of the "General Discussion" sub-forum clearly allows such topic.
  • »26.07.14 - 12:39
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Yasu
    Posts: 1724 from 2012/3/22
    From: Stockholm, Sweden
    @Andreas_Wolf

    Sure, but is it such a good idea?
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  • »26.07.14 - 12:46
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    hooligan
    Posts: 1948 from 2003/2/23
    From: Lahti, Finland
    As long as this thread is in reasonable level of good behaviour I see no reason to lock it. Freedom of speech applies here. But dont you muthas tempt me ;)
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  • »26.07.14 - 13:48
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  • Jim
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    Posts: 4968 from 2009/1/28
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    Thanks Hooligan,

    I, personally, don't intend to descend to the level of personal insults or attacks (except, perhaps, against politicians - a class I believe deserves to be attacked).
    And freedom of speech is an impotent principle that separates us from our Russian comrades.

    Frankly, I also believe it can be a tool useful in exposing their misdeeds, embarrassing them enough to bring them into line with the majority of the civilized world.

    I don't think the Russian people are inherently evil (as I've said before, I've enjoyed most of the contact I have had with them), but I do think they are misled.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »26.07.14 - 14:21
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Yasu
    Posts: 1724 from 2012/3/22
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    I just don't want personal convictions, political views, geopolitical mattets etc to murk the other things we got going on here. Which is not that uncommon. It was not a call for censorship.

    I just want us to get along :-)
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  • »26.07.14 - 14:33
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  • Jim
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    Posts: 4968 from 2009/1/28
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    I just want us to get along :-)

    For the most part, we do.
    And I hope my personal views posted here do nothing to damage my attempt to promote MorphOS amongst my Russian contacts.

    Clearly this is a thread discussing national political events, not a topic meant to attack specific groups (no, not even the Russians - well maybe a few of their leaders).

    I meant it to be thought provoking, but I did not intend for there to be any lingering insult.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »26.07.14 - 15:13
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    Megander
    Posts: 85 from 2011/11/28
    Quote:

    Jim schrieb:
    [
    @ Megander "Up yours then"? - Really? Is THAT the best you can do?



    I see absolutely no reason to put any more intellectual effort into discussing with someone so pre-occupied, biased and unable to only think about being a victim of propaganda himself.

    So - yes, this is the best you are gonna get. I stand by my word.
  • »26.07.14 - 17:43
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  • Jim
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    Posts: 4968 from 2009/1/28
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    Quote:

    Megander wrote:
    Quote:

    Jim schrieb:
    [
    @ Megander "Up yours then"? - Really? Is THAT the best you can do?



    I see absolutely no reason to put any more intellectual effort into discussing with someone so pre-occupied, biased and unable to only think about being a victim of propaganda himself.

    So - yes, this is the best you are gonna get. I stand by my word.



    Good, then since everything you've accused me of you are guilty of yourself, feel free to butt out.
    After all, so far you have provided nothing to back up your points, while I have plenty on my side (including a downed aircraft in Russian controlled territory and obvious signs that the Russians are supplying Ukrainian rebels).

    And I'm not going to be intimidated by a Russian propaganda retort that relies of going on a counter offensive.

    Sorry, but the rest of the World is not at fault because the rebels backed by Moscow f*cked up.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »26.07.14 - 17:53
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  • vox
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    vox
    Posts: 503 from 2003/11/24
    From: Belgrade
    Gents, keep it relaxed. All media is biased, so some deeper insight and careful observation is needed. Rarely there is just one good side (except in the movies) or even if it is, rarely it uses only civic methods. To mention one of such, even Mendelas ANC freedom fighters against apartheid utilized terrorist tactics and caused civilian casaulties. Part of arguable national reconcilliation afterwards was judging those crimes also, not only apartheid caused ones, and ending result years after is far from decent and equal Southafrican society. Just as an example of something we could in past agree as obvious freedom fight, over deeper insight and test of time have proven to be not so perfect.

    On the Ukrainian story I will put downsides on both sides. Ukrainian society seems to be in state of civic war amongst its citizens with several conflicting interests, and I have sincere doubt that official side of Ukraine really represent the best interest of all their citizens. Overthrown of previous gouvernement maybe was a sincere wish for more freedom and better life, but it seems that unity around it and good realization of improvement was short lived. Kind of reminds me of overthrown of Milosevic in 2000. It was good at the time, but now 14 years later, life hasn`t improved as much as expected.Also, as recent wave of right wing politicians uprise all over the world (Economic crisis, nationalism ...) their rise of Right Sector to power is quite a concern and fuel to it.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_Sector
    It includes quite neonazi groups and is sadly supported by EU and US in this conflict by doctrine "enemy of our enemy is our friend" (same way they once supported Saddam vs Iran, Talibans vs Russians etc.)

    On pro-Russian side, way Crimea was annexed is at least disputable,just because of need of military naval base. That could be achieved by diplomacy. Russia obviously supports rebels in many ways and has demonstrated same ways of violence with South Ossetia that makes them kind of equally imperialistic in methods as US. Military show off at any cost. Surely all this also beares involvement of similar Russian extreme nationalists and neonazis involvement too.
    See list of combatants
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_pro-Russian_unrest_in_Ukraine
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_crisis

    If Wiki is correct, even Russian bikers are involved :-) :-(
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_Wolves

    Similarly to conflict in Syria, both sides employ various paramilitary troops and fanatics, which in shortes reminds me its kind of post cold war proxy war http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_war where neither US or Russia are officially involved, but are financially and in military support. And a lot of civilians die while war endures.

    In short conclusion, its a sad state of world even today, like nothing has learned from conflicts AFTER WWII (and hence even from WWII). We shouldn`t allow ourselves to fall into a trap of worshiping one side that easily, and hope and support that conflict ends in peaceful way fast as possible.

    Saying that, mutual interest of both sides should be prosperity and peace, and among EU and Russia trade - since de facto they are biggest trade partners at least when it comes down to resources. In a way, in such wars we are all loosers. Mostly people of Ukraine,and by sad news of taken lives that takes positive energy of our everyday lives - we are all victims.

    So hope we ll come back to OS wars and such instead :-) Live long and prosper
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  • »26.07.14 - 18:12
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1109 from 2013/5/24
    From: Nederland
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > Backing actual Nazis - not neo-Nazis but genuine Nazis that butchered
    > Ukrainians and Jews in the 40's

    People who were 20 years old in 1945 are 90 years old today, if not dead already. Something doesn't seem to add up here.


    You think the OUN went away when the KGB assassinated Bandera?

    Svoboda/Pravy Sector/UNA/CUN are just the same shit different arsehole.
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  • »26.07.14 - 19:43
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  • vox
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    vox
    Posts: 503 from 2003/11/24
    From: Belgrade
    Quote:

    Intuition wrote:
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > Backing actual Nazis - not neo-Nazis but genuine Nazis that butchered
    > Ukrainians and Jews in the 40's

    People who were 20 years old in 1945 are 90 years old today, if not dead already. Something doesn't seem to add up here.


    Svoboda/Pravy Sector/UNA/CUN are just the same shit different arsehole.


    Sadly I have to agree. Even when neonazism isn`t that obvious as Blood and Honour, Storm Front and such that explicitely use Nazi symbolism, it is present in "only our own blood , all foreigners out, and only our soil to our nation" one track minded of extreme nationalism. Today they tend to kind of present themselves as national heroes, religious and morale defenders on path of prosperity and sacrifice. Well, so did original neonazis minus religion.

    Since I (and many others) have mentioned NeoNazis on Ukranian side, its worth mentioning those on Russian side, too ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_National_Unity

    Sad state of affairs, even knowing mixture of genes and cultures enriches us spiritualy and biologicaly, that a belief that "only WE and OURS alone are path to prosperity" is on rise once again. Surely, that is a smallest common factor in a large group within one nation, but even you would really eliminate all foreigners somewhat then you soon "discover" "traitors in your own nations too" (anyone that thinks or acts differently from mainstream or imposed culture) and circle would never end down to most extreme.

    So, keep open minded, humans are humans. If US gouverment (or Russian one) do bad, I don`t think bad of all its citizens. Never generalize that way too.

    Enough from me.

    Edit: on main issue of lack of EU response to destroying civic airflight, it hasnt clearly been established who did it, as far as I do know. Neither anyone "took responsibility" (claim that act as their own).

    I don`t see either how any side would benefit from it. Sadly, Malesian Airlines now might be least desired to fly with ... so we know who lost most.



    [ Edited by vox 26.07.2014 - 20:26 ]
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  • »26.07.14 - 19:55
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11720 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >>> Backing actual Nazis - not neo-Nazis but genuine Nazis that butchered
    >>> Ukrainians and Jews in the 40's

    >> People who were 20 years old in 1945 are 90 years old today, if not dead
    >> already. Something doesn't seem to add up here.

    > You think the OUN went away when the KGB assassinated Bandera?

    I believe I was very clear when I wrote what I think. It was nothing about OUN, KGB, Bandera or whatever, but about life expectancy of humans and the likelihood of 90+ year old people being in charge of anything.

    > Svoboda/Pravy Sector/UNA/CUN are just the same shit different arsehole.

    Sounds like you retract your previous claim that it's the very same arsehole(s).
  • »27.07.14 - 15:05
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4968 from 2009/1/28
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    >I don`t see either how any side would benefit from it.

    If it had been a Ukrainian military aircraft, it is obvious who would have had a motive.

    >...keep open minded, humans are humans. If US gouverment (or Russian one) do bad, I don`t think bad of all its citizens. Never generalize that way too.


    Yes, generalizations are always inaccurate.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »27.07.14 - 15:18
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    Posts: 98 from 2004/6/4
    From: Ivanovo, Russia
    @Jim: I've heard that separatists fought down several UA military aircrafts including IL-76 with some sort of command center in it. What is the difference now? I don't see any obviousity here. It's better lays on theory of lame UA anti-aircrafters.
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  • »27.07.14 - 16:05
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4968 from 2009/1/28
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    Quote:

    QMaster wrote:
    @Jim: I've heard that separatists fought down several UA military aircrafts including IL-76 with some sort of command center in it. What is the difference now? I don't see any obviousity here. It's better lays on theory of lame UA anti-aircrafters.


    Interesting take on the event.
    And I actually am allowed a civil exchange with a Russian (which is a nice change).

    My main argument against alternate theories lies in who occupied the area the jet was downed in.

    But again, I still think this was not a deliberate action, but a case of mistaken identity.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »27.07.14 - 16:56
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1109 from 2013/5/24
    From: Nederland
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    >>> Backing actual Nazis - not neo-Nazis but genuine Nazis that butchered
    >>> Ukrainians and Jews in the 40's

    >> People who were 20 years old in 1945 are 90 years old today, if not dead
    >> already. Something doesn't seem to add up here.

    > You think the OUN went away when the KGB assassinated Bandera?

    I believe I was very clear when I wrote what I think. It was nothing about OUN, KGB, Bandera or whatever, but about life expectancy of humans and the likelihood of 90+ year old people being in charge of anything.

    > Svoboda/Pravy Sector/UNA/CUN are just the same shit different arsehole.

    Sounds like you retract your previous claim that it's the very same arsehole(s).


    Sounds like you really are unable to understand nuance. Are you really that literal or do you do it just to pick arguments?
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  • »27.07.14 - 19:18
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    koszer
    Posts: 1184 from 2004/2/8
    From: Poland
    QMaster wrote:
    Quote:

    I've heard that separatists fought down several UA military aircrafts including IL-76 with some sort of command center in it. What is the difference now? I don't see any obviousity here. It's better lays on theory of lame UA anti-aircrafters.


    I fail to see the point here. Who downed that Su-25's, An-26 and Ił-76? "Lame UA anti-aircrafters"? LOL!
  • »27.07.14 - 19:41
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4968 from 2009/1/28
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    Since the pro-Russian separatists aren't fielding aircraft, Ukrainian forces don't have a motive to shoot down airplanes.
    So who does this leave?
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »27.07.14 - 21:02
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  • vox
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    vox
    Posts: 503 from 2003/11/24
    From: Belgrade
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Since the pro-Russian separatists aren't fielding aircraft, Ukrainian forces don't have a motive to shoot down airplanes.
    So who does this leave?


    If I would highly teoretize on e.g. motive of Ukraine to shut down civic airflight, it would be to have an international excuse to launch full scale offensive and end the rebellion (e.g. having "public enemy no#1). Surely, sacrificing innocent human lifes shouldn`t been on such agenda, but again, it isn`t that such thing haven`t happened before (e.g. accusing Saddam of chemichal weapons, full scale humanitarian crisis never really proven and all that forgoten to be proven after military action etc.)

    While rebels capacity to shut down such plane is based on Russian aid (and that they have shot down military planes recently) Ukraine certainly has such capacity.

    I am not pro Russian in that conflict, but I don`t see rebels motive to shoot it either, if not by mistake (taking it for army plane) and now being to ashaimed to accept responsibility knowing it provokes highly negative view.
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  • »27.07.14 - 21:16
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  • Jim
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    Posts: 4968 from 2009/1/28
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    >now being to ashaimed to accept responsibility knowing it provokes highly negative view.

    It is hard to understand that motivation, except that admitting the error would reflect badly on their use of Russian supplied armament.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »27.07.14 - 21:33
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11720 from 2003/5/22
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    >>>>> Backing actual Nazis - not neo-Nazis but genuine Nazis that butchered
    >>>>> Ukrainians and Jews in the 40's

    >>>> People who were 20 years old in 1945 are 90 years old today, if not dead
    >>>> already. Something doesn't seem to add up here.

    >>> You think the OUN went away when the KGB assassinated Bandera?

    >> I believe I was very clear when I wrote what I think. It was nothing
    >> about OUN, KGB, Bandera or whatever, but about life expectancy of humans
    >> and the likelihood of 90+ year old people being in charge of anything.

    > Sounds like you really are unable to understand nuance.

    It's either people from the 1940s ("actual Nazis") or younger people with same mindset ("neo-Nazis"). You are correct that I'm unable to understand the alleged nuance in this.

    > Are you really that literal

    What's the non-literal meaning of "not neo-Nazis but genuine Nazis that butchered Ukrainians and Jews in the 40's"?

    > do you do it just to pick arguments?

    I have objected because I think your claim was bogus.
  • »27.07.14 - 22:02
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