Lack of European response to new Russian sponsored agres
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1103 from 2013/5/24
    From: Nederland
    Iran Air Flight 655.

    That is all.
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  • »21.07.14 - 14:50
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Crumb
    Posts: 730 from 2003/2/24
    From: aGaS & CUAZ Al...
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:

    But after all that ranting, what does any of it have to do with Russian weapons being fired by Russian backed rebels on a civilian aircraft?


    You mean the same sovietic-era weapons that Ukraine "Porkyshenko" has access to?

    Who's bombing schools, airports, hospitals, bridges and basic infrastructures? who's the terrorist?

    Quote:


    What does ANY of this anti-USA rhetoric have to do with outlaw Russian behavior?



    Who's interested in promoting a war in Europe? Who would profit from it? Who has put Ukranian gas companies under control of sons of high USA government politicians?

    Quote:


    And who is trying to steal something?



    Ukraine doesn't want to pay the gas they consumed. It's just the same as if I decided to stop paying gas and electricity. And the gas/electric company asked me if I plan to pay my debt and I replied that I don't like the contract I signed, that I won't pay and that I want a special price.

    ATM Kiev army is stealing houses of russian speaking people, bombing schools, hospitals, airports, civilians houses and even bombing (by mistake or as an act of provocation) towns in Russian ground

    Quote:


    Oh yeah, the Russians appear to want part or all of the Ukraine.



    It seems west filonazis don't want any remain of russian culture or past in Ukraine and they have decided to bomb civilians, to destroy all basic infrastructures and make the east go back to middle ages leaving them without water for example.

    Imagine that Mexicans living in the west of USA reached the power through a coup and banned the use of english... you would see it as "normal" probably.

    Quote:


    Couldn't have anything to do with that Naval base, eh?



    The contract for Crimea's Naval Base would have last tens of years more, btw 70% of population was russian. There would be bombings and terrorism if that was not the case... I can promise you that if your country was "invaded" and 30% of people were not happy about it there would be bombs in public places. AFAIK there has not been a single terrorist bomb in Crimea so I highly doubt population is against it. Russians wages are twice than Ukranian ones so I guess that they'll love it. The rusophobe nazis of the west (McCain friends) don't mind creating a huge debt that won't ever be paid ever as they'll be in control of the country. USA will be happy to fill Ukraine with their missiles and to fill it with USA gas companies/people.

    The problem is that USA wants to put NATO missiles in the borders of Russia. NATO is a useless organization for those countries who knee in front of USA power.

    Quote:


    You want to go on the offensive?
    Apparently its more convenient than addressing the facts.


    Not really, but I always find interesting that USA people feel like they are the "chosen ones", the "good guys"... like if USA government was much worried about human rights...

    FACT: Russia is part of Europe, not the EU, but it has always been part of Europe. We buy Russian gas and goods. We are good neighbours and you want to cause problems between us, a war. USA politicians/companies should never have financed ukranian nazi parties. Maidan nazi hooligans started it all due to a law that banned parties that received foreign funding. Nazis would stop having money so they had to turn Kiev into a battlefield.

    Fact: I laughed when I read comments in Spanish media claiming that Kiev police was hard and that it beated the "poor" "inocent" protesters... because I have seen videos of protesters throwing molotov coctails to the police and the police didn't even beat them with a stick, they just grouped sticked together... I don't know how they supported all that

    Fact: Kiev is bombing schools, hospitals, airports... that's what terrorists do. Would you bomb your own people? Imagine bombing Basque Country hospitals, schools and airports just because some separatists are hidden there? ridiculous...

    Fact: Kiev doesn't want to pay gas bills.

    Fact: US government sons are in control of Kiev companies after the coup.

    Fact: McCain likes meeting with Svodoba Nazis.

    Fact: Svodoba are nazis, they make nazi salutes, they hate jews and they workship certain nazi ukranian torturer that was rejected by german nazis for being too sadistic.

    Fact: In his short history USA has started more wars than any other country in the world.

    Fact: USA won't bomb Morocco despiting it's a nasty dictatorship of some kind of "king" that invaded west Sahara (Phosphate mines) and orders torturing and killing Saharaui people, splitting them in isolated zones and re-colonize the zone with thousands of morocco loyal followers... if a referendum was ever performed most of people will be from morocco instead of Sahara. They won't do it because Morocco was one of the first countries that recognized the independence of USA. I mean... USA doesn't give a f**** about human rights.


    USA debt skyrockets and dollars are printed non stop like it was toilet paper... USA government needs a big war to reactivate its economy. USA government tries it hard, it's turning north-african and middle east countries into middle age. Syria was a beautiful and safe place before USA started to finance islamic terrorists, same as Lybia. Irak was mostly safe (poor Sadam just wanted to sell petrol in Euros in addition to dollars and he has controlled islamic radicals, now thanks to USA and his puppet countries like mine it's a bloodbath).
  • »21.07.14 - 17:21
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Crumb
    Posts: 730 from 2003/2/24
    From: aGaS & CUAZ Al...
    Quote:

    itix wrote:
    Quote:

    Crumb wrote:

    Putin's plane was going to fly around 30 minutes later than the one that was shot, and both use red, white and blue... I imagine "Yats" would receive lots of $$$ as reward if they killed Putin.


    Seriously why would Putin fly over the country he is in the war with?

    News agents here in China are speculating that separatists misidentified the plane thinking it was Ukraine Air Force. But that is just Chinese.


    Putin was coming back from Brazil after signing a trade deal with the rest of BRICS and a banking agreement (that reduces the area of influence of IMF), of course not flying over Ukraine, but near.

    PS: Russia is not in war with Ukraine, if Russia was in war with Ukraine there would be no more Ukraine and Svodoba nazis would be rotting in a siberian gulag. USA in contrast sent mercenaries to help Kiev coup and army, but USA is not "oficially" in war.

    Since USA has satellites everywhere and they support Kiev genocide government they could try to view the satellite pictures.
  • »21.07.14 - 17:36
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    Tomo
    Posts: 91 from 2003/7/29
    From: Heesch, The Ne...
    Not Moskou or Kiev is making war. Just a few people in both countries want to have their games and that living people are involved is not their intrest. Power and 'respect' is what they want and the suffering of normal people is not important....

    For more (and hopefully neutral) comment look here: https://plus.google.com/communities/118307175501987556985/stream/46c1a82e-bfb9-47f8-8cd1-18a580709604?cfem=1

    Regards Tom
  • »21.07.14 - 21:31
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  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 2069 from 2003/2/24
    @Crumb

    Hook, line, coil, heck the whole fisherman !!
  • »21.07.14 - 21:43
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  • MorphOS Developer
    Piru
    Posts: 534 from 2003/2/24
    From: finland, the l...
    Quote:

    QMaster wrote:
    Anyway, why no one of you noticed that UA forces already shot the airliner once? It was in 2001 and it was a proven fact.

    Of course we noticed. It is also completely irrelevant and unrelated in all ways.

    But since you brought that subject up, humor me by answering these:

    1. Who did Russian officials blame initially? (Hint: It wasn't Ukraine).
    2. Who was the first party to give the correct assessment of the incident?
  • »21.07.14 - 23:13
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    koszer
    Posts: 1178 from 2004/2/8
    From: Poland
    Crumb wrote:
    Quote:

    and make the east go back to middle ages leaving them without water for example.


    Someone said something about not paying for something? Oh, it was Crumb!

    Quote:

    The contract for Crimea's Naval Base would have last tens of years more, btw 70% of population was russian.


    How is it possible then that only 15% of the Crimean population voted for annexation? Could it be because of the fact that if they wanted to live in Russia they woud have moved into it? It's not that far away, Y'know...

    Quote:

    Fact: Kiev is bombing schools, hospitals, airports... (...)
    ridiculous...


    Yes, that's ridiculous "fact".

    Quote:

    Fact: Kiev doesn't want to pay gas bills.


    Fact: Russia has increased the gas price by 200%. What would you do if your gas supplier did so without any reason?

    Quote:

    Fact: US government sons are in control of Kiev companies after the coup.


    Namely...
  • »22.07.14 - 06:05
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    KimmoK
    Posts: 102 from 2003/5/19
    More information slowly appears.

    I saw video where Boeing 777 looking plane was shot so that right side engine got fire. It does not comply with the story so far. (when a commercial plane is hit by BUK, it's said that BUK destroys the plane immediately & totally) If the video is authentic, it would hint that the plane was (first) shot by smaller missile (Air to Air) (perhaps later finished off by BUK). UPDATE: found another version of the video, recorded Jun8 or so, (perhaps AN-26 downing from 4km)so, irrelevant.
    Plane black boxes will verify/clear if that kind of scenario happened.

    Interesting observations by Russian military:
    http://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=11970654@egNews

    (I think that is perhaps the best argumentation by Russian military that I have ever seen. Usually they seem to be just bullying around, this time it would seem they know some stuff.)

    [ Edited by KimmoK 22.07.2014 - 09:39 ]
    :-x :-P 8-)
  • »22.07.14 - 07:54
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1103 from 2013/5/24
    From: Nederland
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/how-to-start-a-war-the-american-use-of-war-pretext-incidents/28554
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  • »22.07.14 - 13:55
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1103 from 2013/5/24
    From: Nederland
    http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/07/19/happened-malaysian-airliner-paul-craig-roberts/
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  • »22.07.14 - 13:58
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    Posts: 98 from 2004/6/4
    From: Ivanovo, Russia
    Quote:

    koszer wrote:
    How is it possible then that only 15% of the Crimean population voted for annexation? Could it be because of the fact that if they wanted to live in Russia they woud have moved into it? It's not that far away, Y'know...



    Yeah. I have some friends in there. I think that your "independent" press just swapped numbers a bit. E.x. 85% for annexation and 15% against are just swapped.

    Quote:

    :
    Fact: Russia has increased the gas price by 200%. What would you do if your gas supplier did so without any reason?



    Read the contract. The price was rised not for any reason. The first reason is that UA not payed for contract in nov-dec 2013. And still not paying. The second: the price drop is in exchange for Crimean navy base. No base - no price drop.
    WBR, Vladimir Berezenko
  • »22.07.14 - 15:28
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    Posts: 98 from 2004/6/4
    From: Ivanovo, Russia
    Quote:

    Piru wrote:
    Of course we noticed. It is also completely irrelevant and unrelated in all ways.
    But since you brought that subject up, humor me by answering these:

    1. Who did Russian officials blame initially? (Hint: It wasn't Ukraine).
    2. Who was the first party to give the correct assessment of the incident?



    It is not irrelevant. It just shows that UA army is poorly teached.
    1. No one. I've seen that they've said that nothing is known now for sure so everything should be investigated.
    2. No one. As I understand you do know who had shot that liner and know the CORRECT assessment? So why you are writing here, but not to UN?
    WBR, Vladimir Berezenko
  • »22.07.14 - 15:33
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  • MorphOS Developer
    Piru
    Posts: 534 from 2003/2/24
    From: finland, the l...
    Quote:

    QMaster wrote:
    Quote:

    Piru wrote:
    Of course we noticed. It is also completely irrelevant and unrelated in all ways.
    But since you brought that subject up, humor me by answering these:

    1. Who did Russian officials blame initially? (Hint: It wasn't Ukraine).
    2. Who was the first party to give the correct assessment of the incident?



    Correct answers:

    1. Chechen rebels
    2. United States of America


    PS. In case someone didn't notice I was talking about Siberia Airlines Flight 1812.
  • »22.07.14 - 16:46
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    koszer
    Posts: 1178 from 2004/2/8
    From: Poland
    QMaster wrote:
    Quote:

    I think that your "independent" press just swapped numbers a bit. E.x. 85% for annexation and 15% against are just swapped.


    It wasn't "my" independent press, it was "yours" - read the link. 30% turnout, about half was for. That would be about 15%.

    Quote:

    the price drop is in exchange for Crimean navy base. No base - no price drop.


    Last time I checked the base was firmly on its place. Nevertheless - you have a lot of friends there, so you probably know better.
  • »22.07.14 - 19:52
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    KimmoK
    Posts: 102 from 2003/5/19
    The interviews of rebels that went to the crash site to "capture parachuted flight crew" of the downed "kiovan fascst" plane might clear some things.
    http://www.corriere.it/english/14_luglio_22/how-malaysian-plane-was-shot-down-51e99c60-118f-11e4-affb-3320a03d21e8.shtml
    (someone will disappear)

    As well as the piercings on the plane parts.

    But a lot remains a mystery still. Rebel warriors seem to think they shot a military plane. But who pulled the trigger, really. And the responsible BUK system must be dug out, whose was it, etc...


    + the poor handing of the situation after the event is amazing:
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/07/22/when-the-body-of-a-mh17-victim-fell-through-this-womans-kitchen/
    Bodies left to sun to rotten for days before anything was done.
    Then dragged to lorry & train & train cooling failing & ....

    Rebels going through people's belongings....
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28397886
    (there was also mentions about cutting fingers to steal gold rings and use of victims credit cards ... surely not all is true, though. Damn, those people look like predators on the scene.)

    ...
    Handling of actual black boxes might have been done sanely after all. As they were kept untill could be given to some independent personell. Now, let's hope the investigation of those boxes is independent (so that no NATO guys get near them @ Britain)

    Not 100% related... but shows BUK capabilities:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSXMhaFntrU
    I wonder if the target can be changed mid-air.
    What happens when if BUK is shot towards friendly target... does it seek unfriendly target from the area instead?
    Is it possible to distract the missile to hit another target than what is was aimed at?
    (what if they were targeting Ukrainian fighter jet with Ukrainian missile, and missile detected "friendly" transponder on the jet etc.)

    [ Edited by KimmoK 24.07.2014 - 07:33 ]
    :-x :-P 8-)
  • »23.07.14 - 08:31
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    koszer
    Posts: 1178 from 2004/2/8
    From: Poland
    KimmoK wrote:

    Quote:

    I wonder if the target can be changed mid-air.


    I doubt it. But, from what I heard of - the rocket can be destroyed by a signal from the ground.

    Quote:

    What happens when if BUK is shot towards friendly target... does it seek unfriendly target from the area instead?


    The question is - can BUK be shot towards friendly target... But nevertheless:

    1. The whole BUK system consists of four vehicles: The launcher, the supply vehicle, the radar vehicle and the command vehicle.
    2. The "friend or foe" recognition is done by the command vehicle
    3. The launcher can operate standalone (it has its own radar), but its capabilities are crippled
    4. It's highly unlikely the separatists get hold of/were trained enough to operate the whole system, probably what they got was the launcher alone.
  • »23.07.14 - 11:13
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    KimmoK
    Posts: 102 from 2003/5/19
    Quote:

    koszer wrote:
    2. The "friend or foe" recognition is done by the command vehicle
    ...


    Ok.
    Finnish military also have BUK systems and they simply said it does not shoot friendly targets, but they did not clarify how it detects a friendly target.
    (they said that without the command vehile (+radar unit), it's not possible to separate civilian planes from military planes. (detection should then be done by human eye)


    Conspiracy theories...
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/was-ukraines-ministry-of-interior-behind-the-downing-of-malaysian-airlines-mh17/5391909
    (more to come, I'm sure)

    Spot a BUK...
    http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message2595905/pg1
    http://blog.storyful.com/2014/07/19/how-social-sleuthing-uncovered-evidence-of-anti-aircraft-missile-system-in-eastern-ukraine/#.U8-ikbHm6JM
    http://www.koreandefense.com/how-to-find-the-missing-buk-system/

    (seems pretty clear that the other side had at least one BUK system and the other side had 3...8 systems on the area)

    UPDATE / observation:
    It would seem the debris and bodies are searched from a diameter of 2km area.
    I think that when a plane is exploded wide open at the height of 10km travelling some 900kmh/h the debris will spread to a length of some 5++ km. And from russian radar it could be seen that when hit the main remains of the plane made a sharp ~90% degree turn in the air before coming pretty vertically down.
    So the whole area from the hit position to the crash zone needs to be covered thoroughly. Huge operation.
    And as serach for debries/bodies can not be done by manned helicopters (rebels would accidentally shoot them down in a second), unmanned drones / RC-helicopter-cameras should be used, etc, etc...
    It sickens me that neither war party truly care about the loss of innocent people, they continue like nothing happened.
    (both NATO and Russia have the power to wipe the area clean. And if doing it together, it would be insanely cool show of the sanity of the big leaders.)

    So far, the war continues on the area of MH-17 crash.
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28438929

    Evidence fabrication process ongoing...
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28415769

    [ Edited by KimmoK 24.07.2014 - 11:12 ]
    :-x :-P 8-)
  • »23.07.14 - 11:28
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    Megander
    Posts: 85 from 2011/11/28
    Can we agree upon that there is no evidence, everything is pure speculation (with malicious intent) and nobody actually knows jack shit what really happened?

    The first victim of war - the truth. As usual.
  • »23.07.14 - 20:52
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Crumb
    Posts: 730 from 2003/2/24
    From: aGaS & CUAZ Al...
    Quote:

    koszer wrote:
    Crumb wrote:
    Quote:

    and make the east go back to middle ages leaving them without water for example.


    Someone said something about not paying for something? Oh, it was Crumb!


    again... just because there are basque terrorista in basque country should I ban water access to civil population? To your own citizens? I hope no neighbour of you ever causes any problem otherwise you'll see as normal being bomber or not having access to tub water.
    Quote:


    Quote:

    The contract for Crimea's Naval Base would have last tens of years more, btw 70% of population was russian.


    How is it possible then that only 15% of the Crimean population voted for annexation? Could it be because of the fact that if they wanted to live in Russia they woud have moved into it? It's not that far away, Y'know...


    they are lucky as there are thousands of refugees fleeing to Russia since they are being bomber by its own country army. movimg to a richer country and lose everything just because some fascists did a coup and banned Russian language use and teaching? I giras that if you have University studies and good experience you can move, but it's not Ann option for everyone.
    Quote:


    Quote:

    Fact: Kiev is bombing schools, hospitals, airports... (...)
    ridiculous...


    Yes, that's ridiculous "fact".


    your pole newspapers will guess that:
    a) federalists are very good photoshopping
    b) they did it to themshelves
    Quote:


    Quote:

    Fact: Kiev doesn't want to pay gas bills.


    Fact: Russia has increased the gas price by 200%. What would you do if your gas supplier did so without any reason?


    no reason? They stopped paying and have declared that don't want to pay. gazprom ia very kind allowing them to pay in advance at similar prices as other countries. imagine that your gas Company sold you gas at 33% of market price,that you didn't pay, that you has a very big debt and that you announced that you won't pay your debt unless they offer you a very special discount. as a state to make business with Ukraine is a joke.
    Quote:


    Quote:

    Fact: US government sons are in control of Kiev companies after the coup.


    Namely...


    Joe Bider's son and other us gov family members.
    http://time.com/2964493/ukraine-joe-biden-son-hunter-burisma/

    Kiev's fascists are genocides... if usa didn't have strategic interest in setting up missiles in the doors of Russia those fascists would be hanging like their Nuremberg friends or would have never reached the power
  • »24.07.14 - 17:47
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    koszer
    Posts: 1178 from 2004/2/8
    From: Poland
    Crumb wrote:
    Quote:

    again... just because there are basque terrorista in basque country should I ban water access to civil population? To your own citizens? I hope no neighbour of you ever causes any problem otherwise you'll see as normal being bomber or not having access to tub water.


    Still did not understand... At one point you state that as a supplying neighbour you can:
    1. Change the price of gas/water at any time and without any reason
    2. Stop the supplies of gas/water if your neighbour doesn't want to pay for it
    And then you state that Crimea, under Russian occupation can drain Ukraine of sweet water (at a rate of about 90 cubic meters per second) and never pay for it, and then complain when the supply is cut. Strange...

    Quote:

    they are lucky as there are thousands of refugees fleeing to Russia


    source...

    Quote:

    your pole newspapers will guess


    I'm not living on a pole (neither the North, nor on the South one).

    Quote:

    no reason? They stopped paying and have declared that don't want to pay


    You mix the cause and the effect. FIRST the alteration of the price, and THEN the declaration that the price is insane and won't be payed.

    Quote:


    Joe Bider's son and other us gov family members.
    http://time.com/2964493/ukraine-joe-biden-son-hunter-burisma/


    Oh, I though you said "US government sons are in control of Kiev companies", not something like: "some of US politicians' relatives are employers of some Ukrainian companies"...

    Oh, and stop that crap about "fascists". There are more Russian "fascists" (radical nationalists) in Donyetsk oblast than "Ukrainian fascists" in Kiev. You keep talking about Svoboda, why not about RNU, LDPR, Pamyat, Mladorossi, or Slavic Union?
  • »24.07.14 - 22:25
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1103 from 2013/5/24
    From: Nederland
    http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/07/23/us-intelligence-evidence-russia-paul-craig-roberts/
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  • »24.07.14 - 23:24
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4965 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Megander wrote:
    Can we agree upon that there is no evidence, everything is pure speculation (with malicious intent) and nobody actually knows jack shit what really happened?

    The first victim of war - the truth. As usual.


    Of course not, the primary evidence is a large airliner downed over Russian controlled territory.
    So far, I've seen plenty of you trying to obscure this issue by pointing at my country.
    But we aren't supplying Ukrainian rebels with anti aircraft missiles, the Russian are.

    And the Russians certainly know a thing or two about obscuring the truth.
    The answer is easy, look for the simplest explanation.

    They thought it was a Ukrainian military aircraft and they shot it down by mistake.

    I fail to see how the US is at fault for a poor decision made half a planet away.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »25.07.14 - 11:45
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4965 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    And...the EU gets around to some slightly more serious sanctions today.
    My apologies to my European friends for doubting your convictions.

    And to those still backing the current Russian lead hostilities, you are shameless.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »25.07.14 - 23:51
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    tolkien
    Posts: 448 from 2013/5/29
    Jim, perhaps you are ok with your thoughts but here It's difficult to undertand that somebody from a place like EEUU can give some kind of morality lessons.
    EEUU is an expert creating dirty wars in the name of peace.
    Sorry but It's better you see what happen in your home first.
    MorphOS: PowerMac G5 - PowerBook G4 - MacMini.
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  • »26.07.14 - 07:15
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    Megander
    Posts: 85 from 2011/11/28
    Quote:

    Jim schrieb:
    And to those still backing the current Russian lead hostilities, you are shameless.


    Up yours, then!
  • »26.07.14 - 07:36
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