Andreas has a point.
There are virtually no genuine Nazi's left.
And the few that remain are about 90 years old.
Further, while I can appreciated the comparisons to WWII, the continuing mention of Nazis is getting a bit tired.
After all, today's Germans have been one of the more vocal critics of Russia's action.

Neo-Nazis? Heck, we have those in the US.
And nationalism does not automatically equate with fascism.

Quote:

Many aspects of extreme nationalism are equal to fascism. Check it if you don`t believe it. It even includes hatered for the Jews, or admiration for nazi supporters quite often, but ideas of "living space just for one nation" (all foreigners out) and "XYZ for XYZians" parole is quite enough for me.

Original nazis are hopefully dead, yes.

But death of third reich (or Mussolini) sadly doesn`t mean ideas are dead.
National-socialism seems to be quite attractive doctrine because it oversimplifies
things (clear enemy) and boosts ego (national superiority).

Like you haven`t heard of neonazism in e.g. UK or Russia,which is very sad for countries that suffered a lot in WWII.

Yes, there is unbanned Neonazi party of US, as well as largest Neonazi forum, Stormfront is in US. Founded by ex KKK leader I do believe.

Strangely, todays Germans are most anti Neonazi, while neonazism is on rise in countries that once won Nazis.

http://www.theguardian.com/gall/0,,711990,00.html

@topic

One thing is becoming more and more clear, eastern Ukraine forces are full of criminals. They do not care how much local people suffer or how much world wide sorrow they cause. Crimes against humanity.
http://www.itv.com/news/2014-07-26/woman-poses-with-mascara-looted-from-mh17-crash-site/
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/malaysia-airlines-plane-crash-video-3893840
http://www.smh.com.au/world/mh17-looting-confirmed-victims-phones-answered-by-strangers-relatives-say-20140723-zw6uo.html
"Journalists who examined the scene said there was a notable lack of items such as phones, wallets, cameras and jewellery.
Some footage shot at the scene appears to show one militant taking a ring and putting it in a paper bag."
A lot of bodies seem to be without clothes. Did militants steal also those?
(or did the air flow rip them off when plane broke down? why did the air flow leave underwear (like boxers) intact?)

I hope we see them in court and that they will be put away forever.

I wonder if the industry/economies behind military are so big that we never get rid of these insane wars. (after cold war, arms industry needs continuous war)

@politics

Some countries need to try to show that "theirs is bigger than yours" and we know where USA does their target practices. Recently Russians found their own shooting track:
http://rt.com/files/news/2a/f6/c0/00/14.jpg
http://pbs.twimg.com/media/Btjsz2sCcAAoW80.jpg
http://wpmedia.news.nationalpost.com/2014/07/russia-artillery1.jpg?w=940&h=705
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.fi/2014/07/russian-grad-firing-from-russian-soil.html

Very sad.

@who shot down the plane

From the work done to cover up, separatists are the one to blame. Other than that, we must wait for more proof.
So far this http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.fi/2014/07/russia-shoots-down-malaysian-mh17.html might be the best summary what is "known" about the BUK to blame.
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.fi/2014/07/exact-location-pinpointed-of-mh17.html
more...
https://plus.google.com/communities/118307175501987556985/stream/46c1a82e-bfb9-47f8-8cd1-18a580709604?cfem=1


Some other things... why does UA insist that they did not have any aircraft on the area, as it seems there was. I'm little surpriced that the Indian airliner did not see anything, even though it was not that far away from the malaysian plane (I imagine if a plane is closer than 50km from another plane, pilots might be observing with eye vision..).
"An Air India Dreamliner flight going from Delhi to Birmingham was in fact less than 25km away from the Malaysian aircraft"

Elsewhere:
http://yle.fi/uutiset/mum_called_me_and_cried_-_the_ukrainian_crisis_viewed_from_finlands_strawberry_fields/7378458


[ Edited by KimmoK 29.07.2014 - 10:19 ]

vox wrote:
Quote:

But they've already launched a full scale offensive weeks ago, so why they would need an excuse now?

There are some more interesting hypotheses:

1. The "separatists" have shot that plane on purpose, because:
a. They're being seriously ass-kicked by Ukrainian army, and need the cease-fire (international investigation), or maybe even the armed forces of Russia as a "peacekeeping mission".
b. There seems to be a conflict between FSB (former KGB, the side of Putin - that failed miserably to hold Ukraine as a sphere of influence as Maidan emerged) and GRU (the army intelligence, the men behind the Crimea invasion, and the "separatist" movement in Donbas and Luhansk). The GRU is now trying to get rid of Putin, using MH17.

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/07/27/notes-on-mh17/

@Intuition

Wow !! I think you've just jacked the crackpot !!!

Quote:

Have you ever read what are you replying on? I've said that separatists ALREADY shot many UA aircrafts including IL-76 on landing glissade by using Strela (4km max. It physically can't shot to height of 10-11km.). I don't see any profit of it to DNR. Big problems and very big problems if proven only.
And UA anti-aircrafters had already shot airliner once in 2001 and had no any learning shots since then. No practice -> only theoretical study -> lame shot. Seems logical.

QMaster wrote:
Quote:

That's correct. Only they've been shooting at everything that moves in the air above.

Quote:

But they've just recently acquired a few BUK launchers from their friends in Vooruzhonnije Sily Rossiyskoj Federatsii, didn't they?

Quote:

Doesn't mean there's no profit at all, just that you (we?) don't see any. There are some interesting hypotheses though...

Quote:

So did RUS anti-aicrafters three times already on: June 14 1940, April 20 1978, September 1 1983... It seems that the torough training doesn't help either...
Moreover, in 2001, president Viadimir Putin claimed that "the weapons used in those exercises had such characteristics that make it impossible for them to reach the air corridor through which the plane was moving". He lied back then, so probably he's lying now :)

Quote:

I find it highly improbable. That's 13 years, y'know...

Quote:

No "separatist" planes operating in the area -> no need for shooting -> no shot missile. Seems logical.
On the contrary - "separatists" had no practice in BUK operating, only theoretical study probably. They might have done just one lame shot ;)

Quote:

Not perhaps related, but it seems that several UA jets have been shot down at altitudes above 5km. Most interesting is the evidence (still not 100% proven) that separatist had BUK and were moving it around. + captured telephone conversations with separatists admitting that they had BUK and did down the airliner...

But what were separatists trying to hide when destroying the crash site? And when taking away a lot of the plane parts. They used two days in messing up the site and robbing dead people on the crash site before caring about the dead ones. They said they found 280 dead, why was there only 200 bodies in the train?
(it might be that those plane parts and bodies had signs of BUK hit, or they just robbed the metal + people for money.)

I do not trust a word of people who robb dead people on arirplane crash site. They deserve no mercy.

(It's also interesting what UA is trying to cover up as also they seem to lie. Same for USA and Russia "PR".)

Updates:
http://www.smh.com.au/world/mh17-black-box-data-tells-of-explosion-20140727-zxc9g.html

(from shrapnell damages I must say, the missile exploded very close to the cockpit on the left side of the plane, some shrapnell can be seen also puncturing the floor of the left side of the cockpit. If the hit would have been further back and below the plane I think most flight fuel would have burned in the air. But from the fireball caused I would assume some fuel tank(s) were intact untill impact to ground.)

Often I read that it's assumed that people died instantly when the plane was hit. Clearly that is not the case and some people managed to remain on their seats, some heard screaming when falling down.

Perhaps a related video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=L8fy60P7APY

I would expect some (more) photos/video (and eye witnesses) to appear as people must have heard the sonic booms (etc) of the accelerating BUK missile.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWGLAAYdbbc (supersonic examples)
http://www.interpretermag.com/evidence-review-who-shot-down-mh17/

BUK hunt continues:
http://i.imgur.com/vqZ5rqr.jpg
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.nl/2014/07/russian-transport-of-buk-that-shot-down.html
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.nl/2014/07/another-photo-of-mh17-buk-transport.html
http://www.interpretermag.com/russia-this-week-defense-ministry-claim-about-buk-video-doesnt-add-up/#0613
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.nl/2014/07/satellite-images-reveal-how-buk-has.html
https://twitter.com/PeterGrnlund1/status/489843128359477248

Launch site hunt etc:
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.nl/2014/07/different-wheather-conditions-mh17.html
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.nl/2014/07/tapped-prorussian-conversations-confirm.html

locations on google maps: https://mapsengine.google.com/map/edit?mid=zJyuR2_5jeDk.ks-VMaE-uFRs

Few things more:
Ukraine was a partner country of NATO. It did not "help" at all did it.
There are numerous signs that Russian support to east Ukraine chriminals continue, example:
http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/07/31/russian-soldier-posts-gory-photos-of-victims-online/
Arms convoy towards Ukraine etc.: http://www.interpretermag.com/russia-this-week-british-public-inquiry-into-litvinenko-poisoning-death-to-open/#1919

Reason? Russian soldiers say Ukraina knows how to fight back:
http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/07/31/russian-radio-interception-ukrainians-fight-better-its-a-full-fledged-army/

Amiga related: TrevorD has been active after MH-17 came down, so no Amiga curse related to this ... perhaps .... hopefully.

[ Edited by KimmoK 01.08.2014 - 10:32 ]

All very informative, guys.
Thank you all for the research.

Quote:

Who said that? American fake-making Department of State? They've already said that Saddam has a bacteriologic weapons. Listen them more.

QMaster wrote:
Quote:

Ah, who cares about Departament of State? We should listen to Alexander Khodakovsky instead...

http://www.globalresearch.ca/support-mh17-truth-osce-monitors-identify-shrapnel-like-holes-indicating-shelling-no-firm-evidence-of-a-missile-attack/5394324

"Failed interview" etc.
http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-liveblog-day-155-train-carrying-mh17-bodies-arrives-in-kharkiv-and-black-boxes-handed-over/#3500

...
I should ban myself from internet...
slaughtering all around the world ... especially children killing ... extreme torture of soldiers before assination etc...
And US or Russia do nothing to stop it, even when they have the power. It more looks like that they all support war & crimes!
(EU "management" is too incapable to do anything, too heavy organization))

[ Edited by KimmoK 06.08.2014 - 08:05 ]

MH17 analysis

Theres some good in this, maybe whe are watching live the death of the united states empire of america.

And now for something completely different

@megander


Wow, seems there is more then one crackpot in this lootery !!!

Well atleast that piece of propaganda as badly as it's written doesn't blame the Ukraine-crises on Jewish-Nazis from outer space previously responsible for 9/11 (as did the one intuition linked to).

What we need here is the official authorized government news.
http://www..cnn.com/
Not some terrorist desinformation.

Yes, where would it lead to if everyone was to build his own, personal opinion without some guidance from Big Brother?

Things only get worse...
"Russian deployment now numbered as high as 45,000, and that there had been 26 clashes in the past 24 hours, including six attacks from Russian territory."

Very painfull situation for Ukraine. They are under attack by Russia but if they fire back, they get the Russia's full arsenal of ammo on their head.

If I was desiding in UN, I would fully populate Ukraine-Russia border with peace keeping personnell and with 24h/7 live data stream to web of what goes on.

Re MH17 analysis document:

My observations with "A:"

//After the missile explodes, momentum will continue to carry the aircraft forward at 1 km every 4 seconds.//
A: The rapidly changing aerodynamics seem to have caused the plane to bank left etc. we do not yet know exactly. If black boxes were served with electricity long enough, we will one day know more (it could be that black boxes were powered untill just before center body hit ground.) At least russia provided radar data and the spread of the debris shows the changed path.
A2: banking to left match with my idea of warhead destroying the aerodynamics of the left side of the plane.

//Residents of Torez reported hearing two blasts at 1620 local time//
A: hearsay. No one recorded the time between sounds.

//Buk firing position to the southeast of the town of Snizhne.//
A: More information of the firing position will follow. But I personally now pay more attention in BUK radar range vs possible BUK launcher position.
A2: Look at the postion where (possible) BUK launch smoke is seen, the possible launch spot is unclear. Only the direction where the shot came might be now known.
https://mapsengine.google.com/map/edit?mid=zJyuR2_5jeDk.ks-VMaE-uFRs
A3: what the telegraph really said "That might also place the launch site further north, much closer to the crash site. " etc...
A4: I think we can be almost 100% sure that a BUK system travelled south from schnize little before the MH17 event. (most likely not far otherwise it would have been taken closer on the well known trailer truck)

UPDATE: debris field map
https://twitter.com/Planesonearth/status/498576135836672000/photo/1

//An explosion in this position would obliterate the starboard side of the aircraft cockpit (It is
doubtful the starboard side will ever be found) and the shrapnel would have blasted through the
cockpit area and exited on the port side. This is consistent with imagery obtained from the debris
field.//
A: the damage on port side (left side btw) shows shcrapnell going into the plane, not out. And it shows that the cockpit was inside the fireball that the exploding warhead caused (high welocity small particles has damaged the aluminium).
A2: if no more aluminium cover over cockpit is not found, it has been hidden by rebels who controlled the area. (there has been reports that rebels cut off parts of the cockpit)

//If a Buk TELAR was located exactly at Snizhne it would have intercepted
MH17 in a head on position. The resulting damage would be very different from the observed
damage.//
A: the damage we can see match with (almost) head on hit


//The question which needs to be asked is "How did the rebels manage to identify a potential
target outside the acquisition range of a Buk TELAR radar, and beyond the limits of visual
range?" Perhaps the rebels are telepathic.//
A: from the captured telephone conversation it's clear that plane was heard above the clouds 2min before it was hot down. So the rebels had positioned observers to north-west direction of the BUK system.

//Finally, if a missile had been fired from a position close to Snizhne, it is likely the citizens of
Snizhne would have observed and photographed either the missile launch, or the missile
emplacement.//
A: we have seen a lot of BUk evidence and facts. Even one launch smoke trail even. There will be more once the cell phone photos come from the rural areas... (also, if the shot would have been done by Ukraine forces, we will get more evidence also from that... and I think Russia has the radar spotting data of the BUK missile radar transmitter mas they have spotted every other radar device as well)

//US has not provided any reasonable means to assist in the identification of the perpetrators of the MH17 shoot down.//
A: I agree.
A2: On the other hand Russia has provided plenty of disinformation, like SU-25 "hovering" above MH17 location.

//When the neo­Nazis in Ukraine overthrow a democratically elected government,//
A: shows how credible the writer is

Anyway... saved the doc as it has interesting technical data.


IMO, this has been pretty reliable source so far:
Open news room

Progress of the war:
http://liveuamap.com/?ll=47.98092279065411;37.696035156249984&zoom=8
http://www.interpretermag.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/LiveUMap-Timelapse-July-13-Aug5.gif
Desperate measures:
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.nl/2014/08/warcrimes-blog-attacked-from-russia-and.html
Assassinated Ukrainians:
https://news.vice.com/video/russian-roulette-dispatch-63
https://news.vice.com/video/russian-roulette-dispatch-61 (destruction of evidence etc. more in video 62)

Grazy ideas: fill the sky with unmanned drones and make the material live. If rebels start shooting drones down, they end their missiles reserves very fast and it could be seen if more are brought over the border.

SU25...
Amazing plane. It can fly sideways beside a passenger plane at 10km height while machine gunning the plane.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article39343.htm
(exteme troll site it seems...)

Putting together the MH17 pieces:
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/543733-mh17-down-near-donetsk-53.html

btw. some say BUK was used also for shooting this Antonov:
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.nl/2014/08/warcrimes-blog-attacked-from-russia-and.html
(I doubt a missile that flies 3700kmh can do that sharp turns.... so that might be some more modern missile?)

When there's something strange in your neigbourhood who are you going to call ... CANADA!
http://pm.gc.ca/eng/news/2014/08/07/statement-prime-minister-canada-announcing-security-assistance-ukraine

And as I mentioned my first posts, sanctions cost a lot for smaller EU countries that are neigbours with russia:
http://yle.fi/uutiset/russian_food_import_ban_halts_finnish_lorries_at_the_border/7399629

Slave labour:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11014783/British-student-forced-into-slave-labour-in-Eastern-Ukraine.html

There's a lot of forces moving at the Russia side of east Ukraina border... I wish Putin would be man enough to admit his errors and step down before WW3.
(oops comic)

I found this interesting read.. (war with finns vs war with ukrain)

[ Edited by KimmoK 11.08.2014 - 10:43 ]

Quote:

Russia has veto rights in UN.

Quote:

...which they used to block a UN intervention in the Syria slaughter, among others.

Quote:

Slaughter of innocent Christians and Shi'a Muslims by filthy Wahabbi terrorists funded by Saudi Occupied Arabia you mean? The same filthy Wahabbi terrorists currently ethnically cleansing parts of Iraq from it's Christian, Yazeedi and Shi'a citizens, the same filthy Wahabbi terrorists that invaded Lebanon a few days ago?

Quote:

Nah, everybody forgot already who killed Iraq and Lybia leaders and made those countries into chaos.