Ideally, the community-managed MorphOS Library could be repackaged as a PDF document in the future and then included on the MorphOS CD. However, first there would need to be more content to make this a serious option.

Extending the MorphOS Library is most likely the most important thing that could be done to help the adoption of MorphOS by new users. While it may be true that the average computer user has no patience to read instructions, the most promising target group for MorphOS would be technically suave enthusiasts (in relative terms) who are likely to enjoy the advanced customization and individualization options as offered by MorphOS and actually do care about what operating system they run. The problem is that, with regard to more serious use of the OS, the learning curve is currently a bit too steep for people who have no extensive experience using AmigaOS. Tutorials and manuals could certainly help with this issue a great deal.

"the most promising target group for MorphOS would be technically suave enthusiasts (in relative terms) who are likely to enjoy the advanced customization and individualization options as offered by MorphOS " Osco seen hit by the arrow

> The software should not use sf.net MUI classes
> anymore either (MUI4 offers most features they need...)
> but since we dont have control over software developers
> we have to live with that...)

Fair enough. I was not aware of that. I guess eventually the apps which are still maintained will be brought up to date.

> Only softwares under the full control of the OS developpers
> have to be included in the official distribution.
> Anything else would lead to a real mess in support and overall quality.

I never mentioned supporting anything. I am talking about immediate accessibility. Some apps are already bundled like OWB for example. How about just having a bit more of that in a bigger distribution? Such distribution can have "as is" warranty. Basically, take the Download section of this site (which already preselected the best apps, addressing the quality concern), bundle it with the OS but in the way that it's preinstalled and preconfigured properly and that should be enough.

> Most 3rd party MUI libraries are expected by specific softwares
> that automatically install them during the installation process.

That was not exactly my experience so far.

> ARexx scripting is not even supported by MorphOS

One of the apps I tried required this library. I guess I should find an equivalent which dose not require it.

> youtube videos should be playable in web browser
>> How?

I don't care how. It should simply work. Just kidding. See below.

>- SSL should be supported from scratch
>> None of the included native softwares require it.

But email software seem to require it. That's an essential application. See below.

> windows should behave in de-facto expected way: have the move offscreen, have them remember their position
>> if I made a mess while working, I don't want to get this mess
>> back the next time I'll use my computer.

Why would you make a mess at the first place? Real GUI users know what to do with windows Seriously, I am actually OK with the snapshot feature but the windows should initially be allowed to go offscreen. I cannot imagine situation in which you would not them to do that. Can you?

> Once your installation is done, you just have to pack anything
> that is not in MOSSYS: in a archive and you just have your "expansion package".

If it is that easy, why not make it part of the distribution?

> youtube videos should be playable in web browser
>> And they most likely will be once the flash plugin goes out

Great news, thanks.

> SSL should be supported from scratch
>> Until we have the time to write our own email application
>> or integrate an existing one there is no need to bundle

EXACTLY! SSL was recommended to me on this forum in order to support third-party email clients. My rationale was that email client is the essential application these days and, if that app requires SSL, OS should have it ready. I completely agree that you have to take this task and make a native email client!

> Expect some new goodies on the 2.5 ISO though ;)

Nice. Can you provide any peek into that?

>"there has to be a simple way of invoking the most common programs
>>There is a simple way already, just add an Ambient panel from screenbar menu.

Ooookay, I will try that. I was thinking more about the dock application but will try this.

> I assume that newbies need a manual with basics, something like AmigaOS 1.3 manuals

Well, used to have one back in the day. I am seriously thinking about getting one now on eBay. The ? helps with CLI commands but one needs the manual to completely understand all the switches. Sadly, there is no unix-like man command or anything similar for now. Maybe this would be a nice addition to the command line as well?

> BTW, I think the iconify button must be added by default.

Yes, that too. Forgot to mention it. Very useful, should be always there.

> the most promising target group for MorphOS would be technically suave
> enthusiasts (in relative terms) who are likely to enjoy the advanced
> customization and individualization options as offered by MorphOS

Very dangerous assumption for a relatively young piece of software that has commercial pretensions. I won't say more.

Quote:

ARexx scripting is still pretty useful sometimes, so I wouldn't go to different programs because of it. If you have access to AmigaOS 3.x, you can copy rexxsyslib.library from it to MorphOS and it'll work fine. Copy rexxsyslib.library to SYS:Libs/ and rename MOSSYS:Libs/rexxsyslib.library to MOSSYS:Libs/rexxsyslib.library_disabled (this was the ONLY exception to "you should never touch the mossys:" rule :)

Quote:

I can :) When I first started to use MorphOS after AmigaOS I was like "Wow, they can go offscreen" and configured it to allow it. But now I'm back with the config where it's not allowed. I noticed that it so much easier to arrange windows when they stop in the screen border. Just throw windows carelessy to borders or corners and they still will be visible. I usually want to see the full window.. it's very rare situation that I'd like to leave some window only partly visible and if I do, I have no problems pressing the CTRL key then. Why would I want to hide content? At least with nowadays big resolutions and compact window design on Amiga/MorphOS software when there is enough space for everything. And especially if you take advantage of separate screens (use browsers, gfx programs, etc on their own screens instead of the Ambient screen) there isn't need for useless time consuming window moving and peeking in normal use.

Quote:

It's easy for you with your custom installation, but it would be hard to make general package to work with all kinds of different installation setups and then maintain it with the latest versions.

Quote:

Panels are like docks, different name :) There just isn't one preconfigured.


Quote:

You should try this http://aminet.net/package/util/cli/Help
Too bad it isn't updated with the latest additions, but it's still pretty useful.

Quote:

Sure, but it's a really big task. I might try to fork SimpleMail at some point though.

Quote:

No, I don't want to promise anything.

Quote:

It seems to be something about being used to it. First thing I do is to activate offscreen windows... If I don't I feel claustrophobic using ambient... Custom presets could be nice... At instalation time, you could choose one preset, and then customize it (if you need to).

[ Edited by amiades on 2010/1/14 12:52 ]

Yeah CLAUSTROPHOBIC was the word I was searching for...

Today couple of people asked me at the office about "this MorphOS thing" I am trying (they saw my Linkedin status) so I did a bit of explaining and selling it to them. They might take the next step and install it. One of them was an ex-Amiga owner back in the day...

Doing the same to an Examiga.
Hope to use a ton of links and let them walk him through it.

> You should try this http://aminet.net/package/util/cli/Help
> Too bad it isn't updated with the latest additions, but it's still pretty useful.

Thank you, this is awesome! A simple program which does one thing well with trivial, informative and intuitive installation. It would be great if this could be brought up to date (it's probably just a matter of updating the txt file; the help "engine" can stay the same) and become a part of MorphOS.

> There is a simple way already, just add an Ambient panel from screenbar menu.

My bad! This is exactly what I need! Thank you!

Maybe, by default, there should be one panel shown with several most used programs already populated. So that it's immediaty obvious that this feature exists. Objects -> Panels -> New could be cryptic, scary and geeky

But, it's a matter of opinion. Some people prefer not to clutter their screens (although it's trivial to remove a panel).

Quote:

Indeed, what's an "object" anyways, and are there other objects than "Panels"? Why is an entire menu and submenu wasted on this simple "New..." entry? And why is "New Drawer" under "View"? View new drawer?

And "Edit"? Copy doesn't copy, cut doesn't cut, but paste does both. How is one supposed to just make a copy of a file Workbench style? Marking an icon, copy, paste, and it complains that file already exists, but no option to change name of copy. And I can paste files onto the Ambient desktop - where do these end up? No "View all files" for the desktop? And what is "Paste into" anyways? This entire "cut'n paste" concept is flawed and confusing IMO - old AmigaOS workbench was heaploads better.

[ Edited by kolla on 2010/1/15 6:33 ]

A panel is a special object and zapek probably planned other types (startmenus, whatever), hence a dedicated menu for that.

View is not a verb, but a name, referring to Ambient views (never heard about a view?). That menu is comparable to Workbench "Window" menu.

Copy does copy, cut does cut and paste does paste. In workbench, there was no such file clipboard concept, anyway. If you want to duplicate a file, you can use the "copy" + "paste as" function which gives more freedom regarding the target filename.

Paste into is meant to paste into... a directory.

Quote:

Well, it didn't happen, and now it just hangs around waiting for someone to clean it up?

Quote:

I know what "a view" is, and Ambient listers are not that. "a view" would for example be the restult of a search, one could for example have assigns that in effect are search macros - a such assign would be "a view".

It would actually make more sense if it said "Views" instead of just "View".

Quote:

Nope, copy and cut just prepares for it, paste is the one actually doing it. And it is confusing, several times have I helped out windows users who though they could enter a folder, select the files they wanted to keep, copy, back to parent folder, delete the folder containing files they had "copied", and paste the copied files into a new folder. Indeed, this logic is correct, this is after all how it works in editors and whatnot. And now this braindead windows crap is dragged into an AmigaOS for no obvious reason.

Quote:

Correct, and did anyone miss it? No, not at all.

Quote:

"Paste as" only exists as context menu, not in the Edit menu - why?

Quote:

Really? A directory? Opposed to what, root of filesystem? I have not figured out how to use it, even if I have "copied" a file, nothing happens when I select "Paste into". And nothing happens if I paste in a shell or editor either, thought perhaps path and filename of "copied" file would be pasted.

[ Edited by kolla on 2010/1/15 7:04 ]

kolla, you sound like someone I work for
You have lots of valid points but take it easy man

Quote:

Appearantly in RAM:, strangely neither snopium nor snoopdos helped to find this out, I ended up searching my system for the file I had copied.

@mihailod

Too bad noone here works for me :)

Quote:

There is reason. I is powerful way to move files around and far easier than dragging icons around the desktop. The flaw you describe is a flaw in naming of methods to do so. The concept itself is perfectly ok.

Quote:

With Workbench you can not even properly manage your files and did anyone miss it? No, not at all.

You are comparing an icon viewer to a desktop.

Quote:

It probably could do something. But until we get there clipboard system probably would need an overhaul first.

[ Edited by itix on 2010/1/15 11:32 ]

[ Edited by itix on 2010/1/15 11:38 ]

Quote:

I don't find it particularly powerfull, and there's lots of issues with it, like "what's in my copybuffer now?", and you cannot add stuff from different sources to the copy buffer, at least I havent seen any way to do that.

Quote:

I never had any problems with managing files in Workbench, sure it is limited, but at least it is rather consistant and intuitive.

Quote:
Right, belittle Workbench all you like, Ambient still doesn't do anything more with your files than what Workbench does, it only does the same things in a much more compliacted and often non-intuitive way.

]quote]Quote:
It probably could do something. But until we get there clipboard system probably would need an overhaul first.