MorphZone

Pirate MUI4 updated, how incompatible is this branch now?

geit

# 55
MorphOS Developer

Posts: 1053 from 2004/9/23

Quote:

phoenixkonsole wrote:
Quote:

geit wrote:
Quote:

phoenixkonsole wrote:
If team morphos plans to go the x86 route, they will likely use even more aros sources and so they will need to port mui over in order to get ambient working....

Thanks for the joke of the month. You just made my day! :D

Yeah we will see : )

It seems you have no clue about why AROS stuff was used back then in the first place.

The reason simply does not exists anymore with current MorphOS as we have all components as source, where back then the MorphOS Team had nothing. Thats why AROS components were used to fill the gaps.

Over time more and more AROS components were removed and replaced by MorphOS native components. Best example here is Multiview.

As you can see on our download page currently basically only some shell commands and libraries/datatypes are based on AROS. Many of those are only present to be backward compatible even that there is a replacement already. Since compatiblity with 68K is no longer an issue in the future those likely will be dropped. datatypes and gadtools for example are basically already quite obsolete. Same goes for #?.gadgets. Some adjustments to MUI to not used the stuff and done. Reggae is a nice replacement for datatypes. The remaining stuff probably does not even need a single chance in source to compile for a future platform.

There are no external core components required to port MorphOS to what ever platform and endian. Speaking of the core stuff.

We have very capable people working on lowlevel hardware support. They did ports to multiple platforms already. They for sure need no help in getting something to run on x64 or whatever platform.
»02.10.15 - 21:01

kamelito

# 56
Acolyte of the Butterfly

Posts: 103 from 2011/9/21

Quote:

itix a écrit :

Changes were not visible to users so it was not advertised in release notes. It was not just MUI5 but the underlying BOOPSI system was extended.

Well it is good news, now you just need to write MUInteface Builder ;)
Kamelito
»02.10.15 - 21:46

Andreas_Wolf

# 57
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 12200 from 2003/5/22

From: Germany

> Stefan apparently has no problem allowing an enhanced 3.8 to be called 4 for Amiga OS.

"Their is 4.0, copyrighted 2006 Stefan Stunz."
https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=9339&start=37

> Does Amiga MUI4 really have his approval?

http://www.amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2014-01-00061-EN.html
»02.10.15 - 21:47

Andreas_Wolf

# 58
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 12200 from 2003/5/22

From: Germany

> FrankenMUI I think is [...] based on the old MUI38 sources.

No, see above.
»02.10.15 - 22:00

Andreas_Wolf

# 59
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 12200 from 2003/5/22

From: Germany

> AFAIK there never was an officially approved release of "FrankenMUI". [...]
> Thore Böckelmann (the serial copyright infringer) et al [...] simply wrote up
> something on their own based on some early beta-code they got a hold of.

"Got a hold of" exactly how?
»02.10.15 - 23:17

Andreas_Wolf

# 60
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 12200 from 2003/5/22

From: Germany

>> I never heard of MUI5 just internal

> Changes were not visible to users so it was not advertised in release notes.

Thanks for the info. Which MorphOS release was the first to come with MUI5?
»02.10.15 - 23:30

Andreas_Wolf

# 61
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 12200 from 2003/5/22

From: Germany

> New OS4 software is written in Reaction. There is no need for MUI4.

http://www.os4depot.net/index.php?function=showfile&file=network/browser/odyssey.lha
http://www.os4depot.net/index.php?function=showfile&file=utility/misc/daysleeper.lha
http://www.os4depot.net/index.php?function=showfile&file=game/children/selmasmemorygame.lha

Besides, OS4Depot lists 78 files when searching for "mui" as requirement.
»02.10.15 - 23:56

redrumloa

# 62
Paladin of the Pegasos

Posts: 1424 from 2003/4/13

Quote:

OlafSch wrote:

beyond robbing, stealing or pirating you do not start any threads, don´t you?

New around here? Welcome to the Kommunity. Sorry you don't like my frankness, I don't tend to be an apologist. I call things what they are.

Unauthorized software using proprietary source code is textbook piracy. Even a couple weeks ago the OS4 team pulled the same shit, it is their MO. They are lucky this is the small sandbox of the Kommunity and no viable company behind it. They would have been sued and and would have lost. They are extremely lucky Stuntz only forced them to require a keyfile. The first release didn't do that.

I am amazed anyone would support this nonsense at all. I guess some nostalgia for "teh name"? Funny how the calls for cooperation only go rabidly in one direction.
»03.10.15 - 00:43

Jim

# 63
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28

From: Delaware, USA

"...copyrighted 2006 Stefan Stunz" - that is just SO wrong.
"Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
»03.10.15 - 01:02

itix

# 64
MorphOS Developer

Posts: 1520 from 2003/2/24

From: Finland

Quote:

Andreas_Wolf wrote:
>> I never heard of MUI5 just internal

> Changes were not visible to users so it was not advertised in release notes.

Thanks for the info. Which MorphOS release was the first to come with MUI5?

MorphOS 3.8.
1 + 1 = 3 with very large values of 1
»03.10.15 - 08:02

OlafSch

# 65
Order of the Butterfly

Posts: 188 from 2011/11/16

Quote:

redrumloa schrieb:
Quote:

OlafSch wrote:

beyond robbing, stealing or pirating you do not start any threads, don´t you?

New around here? Welcome to the Kommunity. Sorry you don't like my frankness, I don't tend to be an apologist. I call things what they are.

Unauthorized software using proprietary source code is textbook piracy. Even a couple weeks ago the OS4 team pulled the same shit, it is their MO. They are lucky this is the small sandbox of the Kommunity and no viable company behind it. They would have been sued and and would have lost. They are extremely lucky Stuntz only forced them to require a keyfile. The first release didn't do that.

I am amazed anyone would support this nonsense at all. I guess some nostalgia for "teh name"? Funny how the calls for cooperation only go rabidly in one direction.

I am far from defending Hyperion or Ben H. who talked a lot of nonsense and only put more oil in fire or behavior of individuals who (if true i cannot judge it) used work of others and removed copyrights. But the "NG community" is very small so all the threads using such strong words mostly only was read by normal users and developers and only created bad feelings by those but not changing anything about the situation. We all should lower our wording and not attacking each other because finally it harms all sides. That is not only my view but also shared by others (including developers). People are tired of the war of words in the community. BTW your view is a little uniquesided, Hyperion did not cooperate at all but also MorphOS team did not cooperate much either (with the exception of giving back minimum code required by rules when using Aros code) and some people like Fab. So cooperation is written very small in our whole community unfortunately...
»03.10.15 - 09:33

OlafSch

# 66
Order of the Butterfly

Posts: 188 from 2011/11/16

Quote:

redrumloa schrieb:
Quote:

OlafSch wrote:

beyond robbing, stealing or pirating you do not start any threads, don´t you?

New around here? Welcome to the Kommunity. Sorry you don't like my frankness, I don't tend to be an apologist. I call things what they are.

Unauthorized software using proprietary source code is textbook piracy. Even a couple weeks ago the OS4 team pulled the same shit, it is their MO. They are lucky this is the small sandbox of the Kommunity and no viable company behind it. They would have been sued and and would have lost. They are extremely lucky Stuntz only forced them to require a keyfile. The first release didn't do that.

I am amazed anyone would support this nonsense at all. I guess some nostalgia for "teh name"? Funny how the calls for cooperation only go rabidly in one direction.

I returned 2011 if i remember right but I missed the big war times between Hyperion and MorphOS team. In this sense I am "new" and less affected than others.
»03.10.15 - 09:36

OlafSch

# 67
Order of the Butterfly

Posts: 188 from 2011/11/16

Quote:

Jim schrieb:
>That's news to me. Do you have any sources for such claims?

Did I claim something other than questions?

Like where IS Stuntz on all this?

>Feels like aw.net..

Nope its getting closer to Moobunny.

And its not really our issue.

Do the AROS and OS4 people want something for free?

did the MorphOS people "pay" for Aros code? (except giving back changes). That is called cooperation, meaning you work together to the benefit of all sides. I know that no camp really thinks that way, only Aros was opensource.
»03.10.15 - 09:41

ASiegel

# 68
Posts: 1378 from 2003/2/15

From: Central Europe

Quote:

OlafSch wrote:
did the MorphOS people "pay" for Aros code? (except giving back changes). That is called cooperation, meaning you work together to the benefit of all sides. I know that no camp really thinks that way, only Aros was opensource.

Ambient is a big and essential part of MorphOS and it has been made open source a decade ago...
»03.10.15 - 09:52

OlafSch

# 69
Order of the Butterfly

Posts: 188 from 2011/11/16

Quote:

ASiegel schrieb:
Quote:

OlafSch wrote:
did the MorphOS people "pay" for Aros code? (except giving back changes). That is called cooperation, meaning you work together to the benefit of all sides. I know that no camp really thinks that way, only Aros was opensource.

Ambient is a big and essential part of MorphOS and it has been made open source a decade ago...

Yes but without MUI4 you could not port it. And as far as I know the public version is not on the same level as the version used in MorphOS. But who knows, perhaps some day someone ports ambient to Aros :)
»03.10.15 - 09:57

ASiegel

# 70
Posts: 1378 from 2003/2/15

From: Central Europe

Quote:

OlafSch wrote:
Yes but without MUI4 you could not port it.

That is factually incorrect on multiple levels.

The MorphOS version of Odyssey makes extensive use of features introduced by MUI4 and it is also being ported to AROS.

Quote:

And as far as I know the public version is not on the same level as the version used in MorphOS. But who knows, perhaps some day someone ports ambient to Aros :)

Given that nobody has bothered to port Ambient to any other OS, it seems pointless to argue about newly added changes that may or may not be included.

You implied that only AROS shared code due to its open source license when in fact a major part of MorphOS has been made open source along time ago.

You might also want to really think about why it is that nobody has bothered to port Ambient to AROS. There are many insightful discussions about the topic to be found online. The thesis that any perceived lack of cooperation only exists due to the small-mindedness and selfishness of individuals is flatout wrong.
»03.10.15 - 10:19

itix

# 71
MorphOS Developer

Posts: 1520 from 2003/2/24

From: Finland

Quote:

OlafSch wrote:
Quote:

ASiegel schrieb:
Quote:

OlafSch wrote:
did the MorphOS people "pay" for Aros code? (except giving back changes). That is called cooperation, meaning you work together to the benefit of all sides. I know that no camp really thinks that way, only Aros was opensource.

Ambient is a big and essential part of MorphOS and it has been made open source a decade ago...

Yes but without MUI4 you could not port it. And as far as I know the public version is not on the same level as the version used in MorphOS. But who knows, perhaps some day someone ports ambient to Aros :)

With -DUSE_LEGACY=1 switch you can compile Ambient to MUI 3.9 system. It probably need some tweaking but more or less it is still possibility.

However, MUI is not only requirement in Ambient. CGX 5 API suipport is an absolute requirement and new DOS is needed for 64-bit file access (for non-legacy builds) and so on.
1 + 1 = 3 with very large values of 1
»03.10.15 - 10:35

terminills

# 72
Butterfly

Posts: 100 from 2012/3/12

Quote:

ASiegel wrote:
Quote:

OlafSch wrote:
did the MorphOS people "pay" for Aros code? (except giving back changes). That is called cooperation, meaning you work together to the benefit of all sides. I know that no camp really thinks that way, only Aros was opensource.

Ambient is a big and essential part of MorphOS and it has been made open source a decade ago...

Lets be honest. Ambient was not open sourced by the MorphOS team. It was Open Source by Zapek for reasons which don't belong on this thread.
»03.10.15 - 10:52

OlafSch

# 73
Order of the Butterfly

Posts: 188 from 2011/11/16

Quote:

ASiegel schrieb:
Quote:

OlafSch wrote:
Yes but without MUI4 you could not port it.

That is factually incorrect on multiple levels.

The MorphOS version of Odyssey makes extensive use of features introduced by MUI4 and it is also being ported to AROS.

Quote:

And as far as I know the public version is not on the same level as the version used in MorphOS. But who knows, perhaps some day someone ports ambient to Aros :)

Given that nobody has bothered to port Ambient to any other OS, it seems pointless to argue about newly added changes that may or may not be included.

You implied that only AROS shared code due to its open source license when in fact a major part of MorphOS has been made open source along time ago.

You might also want to really think about why it is that nobody has bothered to port Ambient to AROS. There are many insightful discussions about the topic to be found online. The thesis that any perceived lack of cooperation only exists due to the small-mindedness and selfishness of individuals is flatout wrong.

that MUI4 features are added to Zune is new because it is needed for OWB 1.25. So I will ask what people think about it. I personal use Magellan and am very happy with it (not MUI/Zune of course) but general would be interesting.
»03.10.15 - 10:55

ASiegel

# 74
Posts: 1378 from 2003/2/15

From: Central Europe

Quote:

terminills wrote:
Lets be honest. Ambient was not open sourced by the MorphOS team. It was Open Source by Zapek for reasons which don't belong on this thread.

I never claimed otherwise. That being said, Ambient did in fact include the intellectual property of multiple MorphOS team members who had to agree to have their work made open source. Even though my contribution was minor, I was one of those people.

The point remains that it was available and arguably more feature-rich than the default desktop alternatives at the time, yet people did not port it over to to any similar OS options: And the reason was not that they hated other people, they simply had different preferences and priorities, which is something that should be respected.
»03.10.15 - 11:31

kamelito

# 75
Acolyte of the Butterfly

Posts: 103 from 2011/9/21

@Itix
Since 4.0 to 5.0 is a big jump it is a major upgrade what does it bring compared to 4.0?
Kamelito
»03.10.15 - 11:32

Andreas_Wolf

# 76
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 12200 from 2003/5/22

From: Germany

>> Which MorphOS release was the first to come with MUI5?

> MorphOS 3.8.

Thanks. I'm surprised this jump in version number had not been addressed earlier.
»03.10.15 - 12:42

Andreas_Wolf

# 77
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 12200 from 2003/5/22

From: Germany

> "...copyrighted 2006 Stefan Stunz" - that is just SO wrong.

Why (apart from the misspelled surname)?
»03.10.15 - 12:43

redrumloa

# 78
Paladin of the Pegasos

Posts: 1424 from 2003/4/13

Quote:

OlafSch wrote:
I returned 2011 if i remember right but I missed the big war times between Hyperion and MorphOS team. In this sense I am "new" and less affected than others.

I think that's part of the rub here. I don't mean that condescending in any way, it just helps frame things. MorphOS started in 99 and had it's first release in 2000. OS4 (in it's current form started) in 2001 and didn't get a first release until 2004. Ben Hermans pretty much single handedly poisoned the well, and the well still isn't drinkable to this day. Here is a small taste.

http://www.biclodon.com/misc/amigafarm/benhermans/

The Kommunity is a fraction of what it used to be and mostly more silent about things, simply because there are few left with grandiose visions of taking over the world. The memory is still there. It wasn't just Hermans, but the unethical actions of many in the OS4 camp. They love taking open source software, porting and selling for big money (see Quake II, Timberwolf) and fight tooth and nail to release the source back. Then there is the outright piracy of things like MUI and btree.library.

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=11342&viewmode=flat&sortorder=0&start=0

Only in OS4 land is it acceptable to take someone work and claim it to be your own. The MorphOS team made it clear how they feel on the subject. Many of the highest profile from the team read and post Morphzone. If they didn't agree with my position, they would quickly correct me with something like "Listen red, you are off base. We have no problem with XYZ. Thanks for the support, but thread closed." I find it amazing anyone would defend unauthorized use of code and even name with MUI4, just because it helps something with Amiga in the name.
»03.10.15 - 13:08

OlafSch

# 79
Order of the Butterfly

Posts: 188 from 2011/11/16

Quote:

redrumloa schrieb:
Quote:

OlafSch wrote:
I returned 2011 if i remember right but I missed the big war times between Hyperion and MorphOS team. In this sense I am "new" and less affected than others.

I think that's part of the rub here. I don't mean that condescending in any way, it just helps frame things. MorphOS started in 99 and had it's first release in 2000. OS4 (in it's current form started) in 2001 and didn't get a first release until 2004. Ben Hermans pretty much single handedly poisoned the well, and the well still isn't drinkable to this day. Here is a small taste.

http://www.biclodon.com/misc/amigafarm/benhermans/

The Kommunity is a fraction of what it used to be and mostly more silent about things, simply because there are few left with grandiose visions of taking over the world. The memory is still there. It wasn't just Hermans, but the unethical actions of many in the OS4 camp. They love taking open source software, porting and selling for big money (see Quake II, Timberwolf) and fight tooth and nail to release the source back. Then there is the outright piracy of things like MUI and btree.library.

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=11342&viewmode=flat&sortorder=0&start=0

Only in OS4 land is it acceptable to take someone work and claim it to be your own. The MorphOS team made it clear how they feel on the subject. Many of the highest profile from the team read and post Morphzone. If they didn't agree with my position, they would quickly correct me with something like "Listen red, you are off base. We have no problem with XYZ. Thanks for the support, but thread closed." I find it amazing anyone would defend unauthorized use of code and even name with MUI4, just because it helps something with Amiga in the name.

I know where the hate comes from but does it help today? Basically you and others say they started. Perhaps that is true but even if what changes it. Since 2011 I was in contact with a number of former amiga developers and I can remember one of them asking if the "red versus blue" war still going on. It certainly did not motivate anyone and propably even cursed some away from the platform and it is not motivating devs to support MorphOS. I do not talk about OS devdelopers but 3rd party devs. Funnily in my view (you can correct me) it seems that AmigaOS has still the most 3rd party support but close to no OS development, MorphOS (the exact opposite) has lots of OS development but not much 3rd party support. So having good relation with AmigaOS users and 3rd party developers would be good for MorphOS. I do not talk about suddenly liking Hyperion or Frieden brothers or Ben H., just good relations to the others.
»03.10.15 - 13:20