Quote:

Efika costed a fraction of Pegasos price. Compare that to current OS4 hardware prices and compare the price/performance ratio to older Pegasos boards. Do you honestly think that it is normal that they release machines 7 years later than Peg1/2 with that poor price/performance ratio? Peg1/2 win in many performance tests and are 7-8 years older.

>>> OS4 must be the only platform that brings out machines
>>> that are slower than previous ones.

>> Do you remember the machine that followed the Pegasos II
>> in running MorphOS?

> Efika costed a fraction of Pegasos price.

And the OS4 netbook is supposed to cost a fraction of the X1000 price. So your point being?

> Compare that to current OS4 hardware prices and compare
> the price/performance ratio to older Pegasos boards.

Why should I? That comparison would have nothing to do with the point minator was trying to make and to which I responded.

> Do you honestly think that it is normal that they
> release machines 7 years later than Peg1/2 with
> that poor price/performance ratio?

No, I don't. And I really wonder how you read such unrelated things from my response to minator.

> Peg1/2 win in many performance tests and are 7-8 years older.

No objection to that, but again, this has nothing to do with minator's (failed) point and my response to it, to which you just replied.

Quote:

Are you kidding?

AmigaWorld.net used to have a "say only nice things" policy.
As a result the vendors were able to royally shaft the OS4 users.
When people complained about problems they were shunted into a neat "private" area or told there were no problems - and subsequently PM'd by people who then admitted there were problems.

There will always be comments, positive or negative. That's how forums work. A "say only nice things" policy is a very, very bad idea.


OTOH Complaining about deliberate trolling is a perfectly valid comment.
But I wasn't doing that. If I wanted to troll OS4 users I'd be agitating in OS4 specific treads in places where they are actually likely to be reading them.

But you might notice, I don't do that. I'm not interested in trolling.

There's a big difference between saying what's bad, or needs fixing, about MorphOS on a forum about MorphOS and slagging off AmigaOS4.1

Quote:
Comparing vaporware with real products is not a good idea. You should do better. Sams are in general both slower and more expensive than the Peg2 released years ago, so in general Minator's post is right. Last Efikas had even better price/performance ratio than Peg2/G4.

Quote:

It has a lot to do with the point Minator was discussing: OS4 hardware turns both more expensive and slower(sam) than previous hardware (Peg2, A1)

Quote:

Peg2 runs OS4 so it's totally related.

Quote:

It has a lot to do: OS4 hardware has got slower (like sam, and in addition to that more expensive). More expensive (x1000). And if that vaporware netbook thingie got released ever it will be slower than ever.

Efikas costed $99 ~ 75Euro without VAT. Price/performance ratio was pretty good, unlike current OS4 hardware (and future vaporware).

[ Edited by Crumb 21.12.2011 - 17:13 ]

..weren't we speaking about Morphos 3.0!?


WHEN WILL IT BE OUT?????

Did anyone actually say it would definitely be out this year? I'm sure I heard something about after Novemeber, check, but not that it would definatly be out this year... Errr Andreas, link me till I barf!

FYI I was making an observation:

Sam 440 OTOH was the replacement to the A1 G4, a significant reduction in performance - without an equivalent cost reduction.

Efika is not an equivalent because, it was a low end, low cost machine. It was never intended as a replacement to the Pegasos.

The 460 is better, putting them back into G4 type performance land.
The X1000 is a lot better again. It's very expensive for what it is, but I'm sure this will be a very nice machine for those interested.

If the new laptop is the Limebook with the 5121e, it'll be even slower than the Sam440 so the slowest machine yet. It'll be a lot lower priced than the X1000 but it'll get creamed by £50 tablets (search eBay for "tablet allwinner A10").

I grew up with the Amiga. It was a low cost but cutting edge machine. It horrendous to see what it getting beaten by the lowest end machines you can buy!

Hmm.. Shall I start up a thread on oh, I dunno, Amigians.org, and point out just how long it's been (over a year) since the last update, despite a "fully working" demo on a Powerbook, like years ago it's STILL not out yet? No one's seen anything of this G5 version since the demo, again years ago.

OMG work has stopped, it's deader than a dormouse etc. etc.


Can you see how 'unhelpful' that would be? Can you see how like your observation that would be?

[ Edited by stephen_robinson 21.12.2011 - 16:35 ]

>>>>> OS4 must be the only platform that brings out machines
>>>>> that are slower than previous ones.

>>>> Do you remember the machine that followed the Pegasos II
>>>> in running MorphOS?

>>> Efika costed a fraction of Pegasos price.

>> And the OS4 netbook is supposed to cost a fraction of the X1000 price.
>> So your point being?

> Comparing vaporware with real products is not a good idea.

Tell that to minator, not to me. He is the one who talked about those vapor products. I just replied to him. Moreover, we already *know* that an OS4 netbook (vapor or not) would be much less performant than the X1000 (or Pegasos II or Eyetech AmigaOne) the same way the Efika 5200B is much less performant than the Pegasos II, which was the previously released MorphOS hardware.

> It has a lot to do with the point Minator was discussing: OS4 hardware turns
> both more expensive and slower(sam) than previous hardware (Peg2, A1)

You forgot the X1000, which is a previous hardware to the OS4 netbook. And the OS4 netbook, which is what minator was referring to in his statement, is supposed to be much *less* expensive than the X1000. Moreover, the X1000 is *faster* than Pegasos II, Eyetech AmigaOne and Sam, not slower. Additionally, minator in his posting I replied to didn't say a single word about price but only about speed. So please refrain from moving the goalposts, thanks.
And I stand by my claim that the OS4 netbook is supposed to be slower than the X1000 the same way the Efika 5200B is slower than the Pegasos II. You bringing the price into play is an unfair attempt at moving the goalposts as minator wasn't referring to the price point and neither was I in my response to him. So no, your comparison has nothing to do with the point minator was trying to make.

> Peg2 runs OS4 so it's totally related.

How does the fact that for instance the Sam440 is slower than the Peg2 negate my claim that minator's statement that "OS4 must be the only platform that brings out machines that are slower than previous ones" (remember that this is what I replied to, nothing else) is nonsense especially when made in a MorphOS forum where everybody (except for newbies maybe) should know that the Efika 5200B was slower than the Peg2?

> OS4 hardware has got slower (like sam,

And it got faster as well, like the X1000.

> and in addition to that more expensive). More expensive (x1000).

...and it will get cheaper with the OS4 netbook, which is the hardware minator was referring to in his statement to which I replied.

> if that vaporware netbook thingie got released ever it will be slower than ever.

...the same way the Efika 5200B was slower than ever for MorphOS.

> Efikas costed $99 ~ 75Euro without VAT. Price/performance ratio
> was pretty good, unlike current OS4 hardware

Again, minator wasn't referring to price, only to performance. That's what I responded to. Please don't read your own fantasies into my posts and then make nonsensical assumptions about what I "honestly think", thanks. Besides, the OS4 netbook (if it gets released that is) will be much cheaper than the X1000.
But all that price discussion is mute here anyway as that's not what minator and me were talking about and especially as it doesn't change my whole point, which has been from the beginning and still is: minator's statement that "OS4 must be the only platform that brings out machines that are slower than previous ones" is nonsense as proven by the fact the the Pegasos II was followed by the Efika 5200B.

> FYI I was making an observation:
> Sam 440 OTOH was the replacement to the A1 G4, a significant
> reduction in performance - without an equivalent cost reduction.

You were clearly referring to the announced OS4 netbook (not to any Sam) which can be seen from the context of your posting:

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=8209&start=42

> Efika is not an equivalent because, it was a low end, low cost machine.
> It was never intended as a replacement to the Pegasos.

True, and the OS4 netbook is not an equivalent to any previous OS4 hardware as it is supposed to be a low end, low cost (relative to previous OS4 hardware) and mobile machine (which the Efika 5200B btw is not). It is not intended as a replacement to any previous OS4 hardware. Can you see now why your comment on the OS4 netbook could only backfire?

> If the new laptop is the Limebook with the 5121e, it'll be even slower
> than the Sam440 so the slowest machine yet.

As I already told you in my reply to your original posting, it will be faster than PowerUP Amigas. Of course, if we neglect the PowerUP Amigas then the Efika 5200B is the slowest machine for MorphOS yet. See the analogy?

> Did anyone actually say it would definitely be out this year?
> [...] Errr Andreas, link me till I barf!

At your command:

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=8209&forum=3&start=12

Miky060,
Quote:
2nd half next week.

I'm really curious and, I confess, excited from incoming MorphOS version. I guess this one is a starting point, a new course for MorphOS. Like 2.0 version was.

Quote:

Still, way more expensive than any MorphOS option.

Quote:

AFAIK x1000 is not capable of playing decently videos so perhaps we should add it to the slow hardware list (that's a joke, in case you don't understand it or try to isolate the phrase out of context to later provide links in other threads) Something that "exists" in less than 250Units is not much relevant anyway.

Quote:

I'm not "moving" any topic but writting about something very relevant to 90% computer hardware related discussions: price/performance ratio. And it was relevant (perhaps it depends on reader interpretation but I guess Minator will agree that price and performance are "slightly" related to the topic)

Quote:

"Unfair"? you like isolating phrases out of context and performing sofist arguments, don't you? bah!

Quote:

Where have I "negated" your claim? Not everything is black or white. Comparing out of context Efika with that vaporware netbook is nonsense (or that alpha-beta-board produced in a handful of units). Comparing Peg2 (that costed less than a new Mac Mini but was not that far away in performance) with an x1000 (that is more expensive than almost every computer ) is nonsense.

Quote:
cheaper than x1000? wow! that must be really difficult

Quote:

Isolating phrases out of context is what is nonsense. The topic of this thread was about how much time we were going to wait until next MorphOS release, that was the goal, in your fantasy world perhaps you were discussing with your other personalities about certain isolated phrase, but I have to tell you that you are at morphzone discussing with humans in a MorphOS thread not an OS4 one.

Quote:

just like performance because it's a MorphOS thread.

Quote:

I respect your isolating-phrase mania, but remember we are at public forums, you were already offtopic and when you reply to a person you can add some extra information in favour/against certain argument but that doesn't mean you claim all the argument is true/false. Your bizantine/sofist discussions about isolated phrases out of context have no interest for me. I prefer google but I don't mind if you continue acting as human webcrawler/link provider

> Still, way more expensive than any MorphOS option.

True, but still not relevant in any way to minator's posting nor my response to it to which you replied.

>>> It has a lot to do with the point Minator was discussing: OS4 hardware turns
>>> both more expensive and slower(sam) than previous hardware (Peg2, A1)

>> You forgot the X1000, which is a previous hardware to the OS4 netbook.

> Something that "exists" in less than 250Units is not much relevant anyway.

It is in terms of minator's claim to which I responded. But I understand that in your attempt at changing the topic of this sub-discussion, which you joined by replying to me, from performance alone to including price and now even unit numbers it helps you to regard the X1000 as "not much relevant anyway".

>> Additionally, minator in his posting I replied to didn't say a single word
>> about price but only about speed. So please refrain from moving the
>> goalposts, thanks.

> I'm not "moving" any topic

You are. Minator made a claim regarding performance alone, which I then refuted using the very same performance argument he had used. You then joined this sub-thread attempting to disagree with what I wrote (see your "Do you honestly think that..." phrase) by changing the argument from performance alone to price (and price-performance ratio), when all you replied to was me saying that the OS4 netbook will be to current OS4 hardware what the Efika 5200B has been to the Pegasos II, so that minator's "OS4 must be the only platform that..." claim is revealed as the nonsense it is, especially when made on a MorphOS forum. So *your* reply to me was sophistry at its best.

> but writting about something very relevant to 90% computer hardware related
> discussions: price/performance ratio. And it was relevant

It was *not relevant* to the posting you replied to and to the sub-discussion you joined by giving your reply. Is it that hard to grasp? Neither minator nor me were talking about anything that includes the topic of price.

> I guess Minator will agree that price and performance are "slightly" related
> to the topic

Performance yes, obviously, but price was not related to his posting I replied to. You can see that by simply reading his posting. Did you read it?

> "Unfair"?

Yes, I consider changing the topic of a discussion just to attempt to disagree with someone (that is, "disagreeing" on something he wrote nothing about) unfair and an act of sophistry.

> you like isolating phrases out of context

I don't think so.

> and performing sofist arguments, don't you? bah!

It's almost funny that you impute performing sophist arguments to me when you are the true sophist here. And yes, that's very much "bah".

> Where have I "negated" your claim?

Your out of place "Do you honestly think..." phrase clearly shows that you somehow attempted to disagree with what I wrote, doesn't it? And when all I wrote was that claim then you must have attempted to disagree with that claim exactly as there was nothing else you could have replied to there.

> Comparing out of context Efika with that vaporware netbook is nonsense

Yes, that would be nonsense, hence I did it in context (the context being given by minator's posting to which I replied).

> or that alpha-beta-board produced in a handful of units

I didn't compare the Efika 5200B to the X1000.

> Comparing Peg2 [...] with an x1000 [...] is nonsense.

No, it's not in the very context of minator's posting. Maybe you should read it for once?

>>> and in addition to that more expensive). More expensive (x1000).

>> ...and it will get cheaper with the OS4 netbook, which is the hardware
>> minator was referring to in his statement to which I replied.

> cheaper than x1000? wow! that must be really difficult :-P

Moving the goalposts and thus sophistry again. I didn't say it was difficult but just that it's wrong to say that there won't be any cheaper OS4 hardware. That would be as nonsensical and untrue as claiming that the Efika 5200B was more expensive than the Pegasos II.

> Isolating phrases out of context is what is nonsense.

True. That's why I don't do such.

> The topic of this thread was about how much time we were going to wait
> until next MorphOS release

I'm sorry but that was clearly *not* the topic of minator's post to which I replied. Obviously this thread went off-topic way before, so please don't hold me liable for that. I was merely replying to a post in this thread in the context of said post. If that post was already off-topic then it's clearly not my fault.

> in your fantasy world perhaps you were discussing with your
> other personalities about certain isolated phrase

Bollocks. Minator is clearly *not* any personality of mine.

> I have to tell you that you are at morphzone discussing with humans

I know that. And I know that minator is a human being and not just a split personality of myself as you seem to imply.

> in a MorphOS thread not an OS4 one.

Blame amigadave for bringing OS4 into this MorphOS thread, not me.

> just like performance because it's a MorphOS thread.

This thread stopped being a pure MorphOS thread by no later than amigadave bringing OS4 into it (see above for reference). The topic of performance was then brought into this thread by minator, again not by me. If you really want to blame someone for starting off-topic sub-dicussions in this MorphOS thread then please blame the ones who actually did.

> remember we are at public forums

What makes you think I forgot this? I'm merely replying with public postings to others' public postings.

> you were already offtopic

I replied to postings in the context of those postings, i.e. on-topic to those postings. If my replies were off-topic to this thread, so were the postings I merely replied to in the first place. You blaming me for off-topic here would be as nonsensical as me blaming you for it.

> when you reply to a person you can add some extra information in
> favour/against certain argument but that doesn't mean you claim all
> the argument is true/false.

Your reply to my posting (where I was responding to minator) was not in favour/against any of my arguments you replied to as it didn't even contextually touch the single one argument that was in my posting. Even your sophistic "Do you honestly think that..." phrase couldn't change that.

> Your bizantine/sofist discussions

I don't know about "bizantine", but "sofist" is really rich coming from you seeing how you attempt to bring sophistry to perfection right in this thread.

> No one's seen anything of this G5 version since the demo, again years ago.

Actually, the latest we have seen from MorphOS on G5 were these screenshots from less than a year ago.

Currently, it looks like betatesting will delay release into early 2012, unfortunately. So better don't hold your breath for a release next week ...

pega-1,

Thanks Pega for the update, I really appreciate you disclosing it.

Great job to great developers.

Cheers and Merry Christmas to you Pega and all the MOS developers!

Matt

pega-1,
Quote:
Looks like my guess "When it's done" was indeed very close.

pega-1,
Quote:


Shit!


Ealy 2012? When common people will have finished all the money that usually is much available to spend on December.. MorphOS Team actually losed an opportunity to do some more money in my modest opinion. I'm disappointed.

[ Edited by Miky060 22.12.2011 - 08:16 ]

I just got my MOS machine so I don't mind waiting for MOS3 to come out. Actually it may be even better that way so it doesn't "ruin" my Christmas holidays if you know what you mean :)

@pega-1
Quote:

That's OK with me. Better to test it thoroughly and release a good quality product than releasing some untested crap that borks your system and force you to downgrade to earlier versions (like the "competition" has a habit of doing). I understand that Powerbook users are eager to be able to use their machines, but for the rest of us, MorphOS 2.7 is really polished, so it's not like there is an emergency here.

And may I also suggest that you wait for the new panels/dock system to be fully developed and tested as well? Not much development (if anything at all) has been put into this feature since MorphOS 1.x days. I think this is a very central GUI/User Experience feature, and currently it is the weakest spot of the Ambient GUI. I think it would be *embarrassing* to go into the 3.x level with this feature still on early 1.x levels...

Hmm, maybe the wait will mean that some stuff like the IceFS will make it as well?

And since you will make Grunch a standard component of the OS: How about making MorphOS itself (and its components) part of it, and make full use of it? That way you should be able to easily release whatever hotfixes to certain individual OS components and files in a nice and clean way (and have it distributed to the entire population) *after* the 3.0 release, should you have any need for it...

I agree regarding to Grunch, but I have talked to the developer (Geit) but he said he cannot implement it in time.

takemehomegrandma,
Quote:

Since the "cat is out of the sack" regarding the 3.0 delay.....

I'm pretty much finished with "my" Ambient and the rest of the polishing will happen this year but I have no way of knowing how long intregration and testing with 3.0 will take or if it's allready closed for new features.

So expect that feature either with or shortly after the 3.0 release (or just use it right now if you know the super-secret address to my betas).

/me hasn't heard a single complaint since uploading last one 3 days ago, so either it's bug-free or everyone has given up on it