hmmm are there MDD running at 2Ghz without any upgrades? Is the OEM version or somekind of overclocking method is hidden behind?

ps. thanks for the answers and sorry for the lot of questions but it is now that I take the big trip with PowerMacs g4 and I am a bit confused and lost with all those models.

> are there Quicksilver 2002 models that run on 1.25Ghz?

At least not without overclocking or 3rd party CPU upgrade.

1.42ghz is the fastest Apple did in the powermacs. Everything faster is overlocked or third party.

> Which is the faster Digital Audio Model existing in
> dual -if any- and single pcpu?

http://support.apple.com/kb/SP113

That's without 3rd party CPU upgrade of course.

> 2gb is only possible with MDDs

...and PowerMac3,1 to 3,3. But MorphOS can only see max 1.5 GiB RAM anyway.

1.42Ghz... I see

Is it single od dual? and which model is it?

Powermac MDD 1.42Ghz, only in dual version.

Anyway , you might want to check this wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Mac_G4

Considering the processor we are both using, I'd like to see a comparison to an MDD 1.42. Its got a 167Mhz bus, but the memory benchmarks aren't that much higher than the Sonnett card . The 7455 also has L3 cahe the 7447 lacks, but there is an almost 400Mhz advantage to the Sonnett.
Personally, I think it would be close.

> I'd like to see a comparison to an MDD 1.42.

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7372&forum=11&post_id=76637#76637
https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7419&forum=11&post_id=77395#77395

Thanks Andreas. That confirms what I thought (that I don't have to worry about any smack talking 1.42 MDD owners).
But how much better would the 7448 based accelerators be?
Has anyone tested that?

> That confirms what I thought (that I don't have to worry
> about any smack talking 1.42 MDD owners).

Let's have a closer look at the relevant Barefeats' tests I indirectly linked to in my previous posting:

http://www.barefeats.com/g4up.html :
The 7455 at 1.42 GHz is faster than the 7447A at 1.8 GHz in 5 out of 8 tests, namely in one of the two Photoshop tests and in all four 3D game tests.

http://www.barefeats.com/g4up2.html :
The 7455 at 1.42 GHz is faster than the 7448 at 1.8 GHz in 2 out of 6 tests*, namely in the two Photoshop tests.

> how much better would the 7448 based accelerators be?
> Has anyone tested that?

Comparison (clock per clock) of 7447A vs. 7448 from http://www.barefeats.com/g4up2.html :

iMovie: 7448 is 3.0% faster.
Cinebench: 7448 is 4.4% faster.
Doom 3: 7448 is 12.5% faster.*
Halo: 7448 is 10.8% faster.
Photoshop CS: 7448 is 6.6% faster.
Photoshop CS3: 7448 is 5.9% faster.

In dnetc however there's no significant advantage to the 7448 over the 7447A/B:
https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7001&forum=3&post_id=80363#80363

* Seeing that in Doom 3 benchmark the 7448 at 1.8 GHz is 12.9% faster than the 7455 at 1.42 GHz we can assume that in Doom 3 the 7447A at 1.8 GHz and the 7455 at 1.42 GHz would be about on par (7455 being 1.2% faster).

So, from those test results, it would appear that for many every day actual tasks the 1.42GHz MDD is actually faster than the 1.8GHz 7447A Sonnet accelerated Quicksilver, or Digital Audio PowerMacs.

I don't know what everyone has been paying for their Sonnet upgrade accelerators, but the prices I have seen have been higher than the prices I have seen for complete 1.42GHz MDD PowerMacs, so at least where I live, the better "bang for the buck" would be to buy a 1.42GHz MDD PowerMac.

For bragging rights, having a 1.8GHz PowerMac sounds better than any actual speed advantage, over having a 1.42GHz PowerMac, unless the 1.8GHz accelerator happens to have a 7448 G4, instead of a 7447A G4 CPU. (are 7448 G4 accelerators available for any model of G4 PowerMac? Which manufacturers use the 7448 G4 @ 1.8GHz in their accelerator cards? Which G4 cpu model is available @ 2.0GHz and is it compatible with MorphOS2.x?)

For me, I think it would be better to stick with what I have, unless I can swap my dual 1.25GHz G4 cpu module (in my non-FW800 MDD) with a dual 1.42GHz G4 cpu module without losing my ability to run MacOS9.2.2, which I need to run the version of Media Composer that works with my Avid Meridien PCI cards and break-out boxes.

A dual 1.42GHz G4 module over-clocked to 1.5GHz, or maybe 1.67GHz to match the buss speed, would likely be the fastest G4 PowerMac for me. But I don't know how, or if it is even possible to use the later dual 1.42GHz G4 cpu modules on the earlier, non-FW800, dual 1.25GHz G4 motherboards, even though they look the same physically.

Thanks for the www.barefeats.com comparisons Andreas.

[ Edited by amigadave on 2010/12/27 9:01 ]

5 out of 8 tests? No, that's not a clear lead at all. Its about parity. And I was really hoping the 7448s wouls produce more of an advantage (maybe the lower memory bandwidth affects this).

I will agree that an1.42Ghz Mdd is a more sensible buy though. You've got better disk controllers (isn't there an additional ATA controller - both ATA 100 instead of ATA66). and DDR apparently allow some increase in non cpu i/o tasks.

But overall, I don't see any really big jumps from using an MDD. It's nice to know that older Powermacs can be easdily upgraded to performance levels near the best Powermac produced.

And while Sonnett upgrades are going up in price (and the 7448 upgrades are outrageous), I got mine gor $150. Although that is astupid compared to to the 69.95 I recently spent on a Phenom X3. that runs at 3.3 Ghz.

Can anyone tell me about the PCI slots in the Powermac? They're long than standard PCI slots and look like PCI-X slots.

[ Edited by Jim on 2010/12/27 17:57 ]

> are 7448 G4 accelerators available for any model of G4 PowerMac?

Yes, that's how Barefeats did their tests. Further example from this very site:

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=11&topic_id=7474&start=28

> Which manufacturers use the 7448 G4 @ 1.8GHz in their accelerator cards?

Newer Technology and PowerLogix. Besides, Daystar had a prototype.

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=6770&start=26

> Which G4 cpu model is available @ 2.0GHz

7447A/B/C (Newer Technology and PowerLogix, apparently also Giga Designs) and 7448 (Newer Technology), all overclocked by the respective card manufacturer, of course.

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=6993&start=25

> and is it compatible with MorphOS2.x?

Yes, both are (7448 starting with MorphOS 2.7):

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=7592&start=10

> A dual 1.42GHz G4 module over-clocked to 1.5GHz, or maybe 1.67GHz
> to match the buss speed

A multiplier of 9 (1.5 GHz) isn't any worse than one of 8.5 (1.42 GHz) or 10 (1.67 GHz). It's all matching the bus speed.

> unless I can swap my dual 1.25GHz G4 cpu module (in my non-FW800 MDD)
> with a dual 1.42GHz G4 cpu module without losing my ability to run MacOS9.2.2
> [...] I don't know how, or if it is even possible to use the later dual 1.42GHz G4 cpu
> modules on the earlier, non-FW800, dual 1.25GHz G4 motherboards

That should be possible. And the ability to run OS9 is bound to the mainboard AFAIK, so you wouldn't lose it.

> I was really hoping the 7448s wouls produce more of an advantage
> (maybe the lower memory bandwidth affects this).

Yes, as well as lack of L3 cache.

> Can anyone tell me about the PCI slots in the Powermac?
> They're long than standard PCI slots and look like PCI-X slots.

These are 64-bit PCI slots. Compare:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/PCI_Keying.png

Great reference Andreas. I assume we're still talking about 33Mhz slots (as opposed to PCI-X's 66Mhz).

Btw - I have received more useful information from you in the last year than from some people I've known my entire life. Thanks.

> I assume we're still talking about 33Mhz slots

Correct. PowerMac G4's PCI slots have a 64-bit width at 33 MHz clock. There's a nice table on German Wikipedia:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peripheral_Component_Interconnect#Allgemeine_PCI-Bus-Spezifikationen

So it's either PCI 64-bit v2.1 or PCI v2.2 in the PowerMac G4.

> as opposed to PCI-X's 66Mhz

Actually, there is PCI at 64-bit width and 66 MHz clock specified since 1994 (see table referenced above). As far as I understand, PCI-X at 66 MHz *is* 64-bit PCI at 66 MHz. "Real" PCI-X (as in "better than best PCI") only starts at 133 MHz.

So the expansion slots on a G5 run at 133Mhz? Wow.

> So the expansion slots on a G5 run at 133Mhz?

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerMac_G5#Product_revision_history and http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g5/faq/powermac-g5-number-type-speed-pci-pci-x-pcie-slots.html the PowerMac G5 has mixed PCI-X slots: some 100 MHz and some 133 MHz. So it seems "real" PCI-X starts at 100 MHz, not at 133 like I told before.
Btw, the last PowerMac G5 generation's PCIe runs at 2500 MHz ;-)

The future for MorphOS hardware looks very promising!

You might have a look at

http://g5.cybergraphx.de/iMacG5-1.jpg
http://g5.cybergraphx.de/iMacG5-2.jpg
http://g5.cybergraphx.de/iMacG5-3.jpg

This might get yet another PPC hardware option in the future.Just consider this as some sort of teaser for now, though. Nothing has been decided on that yet, it's only a proof of concept for now....



[ Editiert durch pega-1 an 2010/12/29 16:42 ]

you might as well go on with it at some point if your that far. Or isn't that far at all ?

Nice one. Since I don't like big boxes too much this could be something alternative to the mini.

OMG -Frank you are the master at stoking my expectation. Just a brief look, Radeon 9800 driver, G5 memory bandwidth that is frightening, and what would appear to be a G5 iMac.

And I'm sure when I go back to review these three images I'll be able to pick out more.

I already got my Christmas gifts. What an end of the year bonus!