fab: i really dont see why disabling 3d gives a speed boost to scrolling. 3d layers meant to speed up gfx operations due to hw acceleration isnt it? so how can is slow down things like scrolling then? its understandable for me that 3d layers use more video memory but the speed issue i just dont get it:) can you enlight me pls?

btw i use ff daily now as me peg is dead and i must say i miss owb a bit (and morphos behind it:). so we dont need ff really (duh it would be nice to have it but not necessery) just fab to improve owb even more. and more...:)

ah and what engine does opera use? coz there are some sites which are dont work with neither opera nor owb but work in ff (my webmail fe. but it works better in owb than in opera for the record)

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Enhanced Display doesn't actually use any hardware accelerated calls the non-enhanced display does not use. It's one of the reasons the name '3d layers' is obsolete. It was mostly a joke (although I did use tinygl at some point).

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Scrolling is slower because with Enhanced Display all scrolling first happens in the window backbuffer and then the screen is updated. That gives you two blits instead of one for a simple-refresh window.


[ Edited by jacadcaps on 2009/11/26 13:46 ]

Quote:

@sadddam

Like jaca said.
But anyway, the blit part is only a small part in the whole scrolling process. The most important one is in webkit rendering, and more precisely in cairo render part. When/If cairo gets accelerated, it might becomes more enjoyable. That said, on Pegasos2, I think it's generally ok. Just the most heavy pages (especially ones with static background that cause a full redraw) are a bit painful. And to get back to topic, that would be just the same (or worse) with firefox, since it also uses Cairo for rendering, but with a heavier engine (Gecko).

@ SMF

I don't know which HW you use, but it's pretty smooth here.

@Jadacaps

Peg2 & Peg1... not sure about the gfx, Radeon 9250 with 128mb in the peg2 atleast

And i don't know what HW you use but IMHO calling it smooth is wrong. the word very usuable is a better choice :) but it's okay until there is HW cairo

@Fab

Many apologies. I was confident that I had installed Japanese fonts but when I checked just now I found some fonts missing. It works now, however, it takes one minute to render http://www.google.co.jp so it's barely usable.

How about other languages ? How can I enable Thai ? I definitely have the fonts installed but OWB will not show web pages in UTF-8. Can't I even get a naive render of the text ?

I guess now you have WebCore fonts, text appears quite better than without.

About japanese, remove mossys:fonts/_ttf from the font config file, since these fonts add unnecessary lookups in fontconfig. Japanese or chinese truetype files are generally so large they apparently don't fit in fontconfig cache, and thus are reloaded more often than wanted. But 1 minute is certainly mostly caused because of the presence of mossys:fonts/_ttf/ in the config file.

About thai, i have no idea, but it shouldn't be any different from any other language, as long as you have proper fonts (at least it's built in libicu).


[ Edited by Fab on 2009/11/26 21:21 ]

Quote:

My question was mainly pointed at future users that are sitting on the fence right now and have not made a choice as to which "Next Gen" Amiga system to purchase (and/or use for free with AROS/ICAROS). There are still many Amiga users that are still using only Classic Amiga computers that have been waiting for the lawsuit between A.inc and Hyperion to be concluded and other former Amiga users that have been waiting for the "Next Gen" Amiga systems to mature further and getting a decent web browser is a big step for many of them to accept getting a "Next Gen" Amiga system, so that prompted my question. How will the completion of Timberwolf for AOS4.1 affect the MorphOS Development Team in getting future MorphOS users?

I certainly don't think that it will have no affect and saying that it will have no affect on existing MorphOS users is naive, because anything that lessens the number of future MorphOS newbies, ultimately affects the survivability of MorphOS itself.

The completion of Timberwolf, if nothing else, is a huge psychological boost for the AmigaOS4.x users and I think it will attract them some new users and purchasers of computers to run AmigaOS4.1, just as the release of MorphOS2.4 for the MacMini was a boost for getting new users. It is not so much a question of which browser is better, but which OS is going to be promoted better.

If you don't think having more of the few thousand potential new users is important for the future of MorphOS, I think you underestimate the importance of numbers to the future success and ultimate survival of our favorite OS. As the developers have stated, their target audience is NOT the average Windows or Mac users, or even the smaller group of Linux or other Unix type OSes. Their primary focus is to get back the current and former Amiga users. Perhaps some day when MorphOS is much further along and we also have tons more of new apps and games for MorphOS, it will be ready to compete with Linux and other Unix type OSes and maybe if a miracle happens, it will even be ready to compete and take a small bite out the the larger MacOSX and Windows user bases, but that day is a long way off, if it ever comes.

More users means more potential for developers of third party apps and games and even possibly more developers to work on MorphOS itself.

So, I think that the completion of Timberwolf for AmigaOS4.1 might potentially take some new users away from MorphOS2.4, unless we make a more concerted effort to promote MorphOS2.4 to those people that may think that with the completion of Timberwolf for AmigaOS4.1 it is time for them to make the next step and purchase a Next Gen Amiga system.

@Fab

I removed MOSSYS:Fonts/_ttf from the config but hasn't speeded up very much.
Will fontconfig ignore the cache file for this directory or do I need to delete it and
get OWB to rescan the dirs ? A typical Japanese TTF is about 5 MB.

For Thai, the renderer doesn't even produce boxes or ????; blank space only. I'm sure my fonts are good.

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IMHO I reckon that most people who were going to buy a "next generation system" have done so already. You don't have any numbers to back up your claim and neither do I. The only recent numbers we have suggest not more than 100 (many of that 100 were people who already have next gen systems).

There are probably a few others who are interested in returning to "Amiga" - whatever that is. They're going to have other hardware so if they think Firefox is important they have it already.

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AFAIK a Mac Mini is significantly faster than a SAM *and* cheaper. If that's the case, do you seriously think people are going to go for SAM just so they can use Firefox ?

Incidentally, you seemed to miss my point that it will probably be ages before Timberwolf is finished, don't let some early screenshots fool you into thinking it's just two more weeks of work.

Getting Firefox ported is only the beginning. Keeping the code current with newer releases is going to take a lot of work too. Compare that with OWB where one ace programmer manages to synchronise his port and add new features.

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You're dreaming. MorphOS is a niche OS for niche hardware. I really do hope that one day it will have all those features and be just as capable as any other OS but it isn't going to happen soon and probably it will never compete with Linux.

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I really wouldn't overestimate that FF port. It even isn't called FF! Those who buy labels may fall for it, others will read reviews and while FF (Timberwolf) isn't out yet I doubt it will win in a 1:1 comparision with OWB/MorphOS. Yes, the name is famous. But it is also known for bloatness and slowness. And I don't kow how good your FF works, but the FF installed on my Eee keeps crashing a lot (much, much more often than OWB on MorphOS). And while OWB rarely brings down the system (mind you there is not even MP on poor MorphOS) FF does the stunt and renders Xandros to a stall (MP my a*s). I am fed up with FF, really!
In the earlier days (from 1.0 on) I used in on Win, but dumped it off my Win maschine a few days after V1.5 came out. It was crashy and crashy and crashy. Switched to Opera back then and never ever looked back.
Maybe other ppl have better experience with FF, but I really don't have a strong desire for it. And I guess I am not alone At least all Xandros Eee users should share that poor (slow and unstable as thin november ice) experience). a name is not everything, you also need substance and I seriously doubt Timberwolf will deliver substance.

[ Edited by Zylesea on 2009/11/27 0:55 ]

I also think that Timberwolf is a nice to have, but not a must have.
It certainly is not a system seller. For selling a system you need a good "package" of functionality and look & feel. IMHO MorphOS has ATM more to offer in this direction and we see a good rate of development, even including the expansion towards Apple hardware.
OWB is like the OS approaching perfection (if a software could ever be perfect ), missing few things.
It also has been discussed here and in other fora that a sole port of FF does not provide all the functionality people adore (ok, some don?t ) like the vast plugin support even from 3rd party developers (Skype etc.). So, if the resources to provide such functionality are not present, a port of FF is nothing more than one more browser...
Concerning the resources, MorphOS is IMHO better off with higher rendering performace, Java support being worked on (see Pegasosforum) and also the flash plugin under development. So maybe in the end OWB will even outrun Timberwolf in respect to performance, features and compatibility.
We should not be so so negative and depressed about the idea of FF being ported to AOS and not MorphOS, we should proudly promote our system and show what it is capable of and that there is a modern and up to date browser running on it!
The OS itself is what matters in first place and which attracts users if it is good. Of course, software is also needed but a browser is just one standard app which should be present on any OS. Other software packages can make a system unique, but that is another point to be discussed.

At least, who knows Timerwolf in the "outside world"?

[ Edited by BurnTwice on 2009/11/27 2:11 ]

[ Edited by BurnTwice on 2009/11/27 2:18 ]

@amigadave

Quote:

Well, those former Amiga users are not willing to come back. Not until the OS runs on their own hardware and I am not sure if they would be willing to touch any Amiga operating system still. The post-Commodore era has lasted 15 years now -- it is at least five years more than the holy Commodore-Amiga era.

Like Petro Tschytschenko said -- year 1996 will be the year of Amiga (DISCLAIMER: the year may be off by one or two ).

So dont get your hopes up.

> MorphOS is IMHO better off with [...] Java support being worked on
> (see Pegasosforum)

Is that really only for MorphOS? JAmiga is GPL after all.

"Java support being worked on
> (see Pegasosforum)"

pls tell us more! (that forum is in german). thx.

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Hahaha, I love the idea Definitely a winner for me :D

That's quite funny what AmigaOS users are saying that port of FF will make their system more attractive that it is now. I wouldn't pay 800e for a computer which even won't be able to play flash content on the websites. People have to understand that web browser is a very important piece of software but only software which makes system attractive to the users.

Everyone seems to think that I am running around yelling that the sky is falling like a well known fowl of small size, but I am not. I am only pointing out that the AmigaOS4.x crowd is using several things to help promote their OS to try to get more new users. The end of the lawsuits was big for them. The announcements they made about the long term goals of their roadmap for AmigaOS4.x, and now the screen shots of Timberwolf. As I already wrote, it is not necessarily important which browser is the best, or has the most features, it is the one that gets promoted the best that ends up generating the most sales of the OS it runs on. We more than any other group should understand that after seeing a much inferior MS-DOS and Windows 3.1 dominate and grow into the biggest thing the world has ever seen sold by one company.

I would like to see more promotion of MorphOS2.4's advantages and successes recently on every Amiga related site that allows news and comments regarding MorphOS2.4. It is very pessimistic to say that all the former Amiga users that will ever be interested in a "Next Gen" Amiga system have already gotten one, or made their choice of which OS they want to use. I do not agree. I think there are still many former Amiga users and even some current Classic Amiga users that can be persuaded to try and eventually buy MorphOS2.x.

I see no reason that with the right kind of promotion, we can't get more users from these three groups of computer users:

Current Classic 68k Amiga users
Former Classic 68k Amiga users that still keep an eye on what is happening in the Amiga forums and websites.
Current AmigaOS4.x users that are dissatisfied with the lack of performance of their expensive SAM systems. (this group is a hard nut to crack, mostly because they are stuck on the name "AmigaOS", so it will be much harder to convince some of them to switch to MorphOS2.x, but I am sure it can be done, over time, by showing them they could be using a superior OS that is every bit as much like an Amiga as any other system that they are already used to using.)

Who is going to promote MorphOS2.x if we don't do it?

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Morpos team maybe?

Yes, Pegasosforum is a german site. Thore is working on Jamiga:
http://www.pegasosforum.de/viewtopic.php?t=4152&highlight=jamiga

I hope this project will succeed.

Yes, Jamiga is GPL, but there has to be one to attend to to make it real, isn?t it?
For the time being I only see the effort in the given link.

Amigadave, I agree to the fact that MorphOS has to be promoted much better. But the Timberwolf won?t make the difference. Like I said, who knows Timberwolf

It matters more to polish the OS and to attract ppl to produce more contend than to focus on just one app which maybe is an uncomplete port (if there is no java etc.) of a famous browser under a different name...

I never intended any of my posts to imply that MorphOS needs Timberwolf. Only that MorphOS needs better promotion to the three groups of computer users that I mentioned. I am very happy so far with OWB on my G4 MacMini. The reference to Timberwolf is that it has meaning for the AmigaOS4.x users and might have some meaning (however misguided) to potential Next Gen Amiga users sitting on the fence watching the progress of both MorphOS2.x and AmigaOS4.x.

Sorry if my postings were not easily understood.

I think most ppl here think MorphOS needs a better public reputation and awareness. One thing would be having reviews about it on webpages that cover a bit broader audience. Sites like OSnews would be a good start. I mean the article about MorphOs on the efika was quite nice. Even most comments were positive, only thing ppl moaned about was price and hardware.
For the hardware there's a cure available since early October: The Mac mini. And it seems to me that there are no major issues unresolved with MorphOS on the Mini yet. Some minor as no global volume control and some Apple kbds do not work, also there is no FW and no WLAN (these latter two will probably stay unsupported for a while), but all in all the port seems pretty polished and well done. After using it for a while I think it is advanced enough to confront a broader audience with it.
I had several student groups now working on my mini during the last weeks. They did not had too much to do with it: using a custom written software, browsing, working with pdfs (oh , there are still glitches, I have pretty some pdfs that render Apdf dead, I can provide some of these pdfs for testng purpose), copying files to their usb sticks ad so on. But there were no general probs with the system. I think that says pretty much. And no, those students were not geeks, but average advanced biology students (7 female, 2 male). Of course they were not blown away instantly by the system, but at least there were no complaints, nothing which stopped them.

But honestly I am a bit out of ideas how to spread the word successfully. Move it out of the geek/Amiga corner to another, more sophisticated corner. Someone who uses MorphOS must be clever, smart and somehow different. But not just crazy and nuts (I think that's the current image). And another "different" than this hipster lifestyle oriented"different" that Apple sells. But rather some "different" that implies to be intelectual, individual, and a bit against the common approach.
Resource efficiency is even another point. The mini G4 is generally seen as an obsolete computer, but with MorphOS it can be used for something good. It saves resources: rather cheap, old, existing devices can be used, power uptake is low. This is actually green computing! Probably this approach could be the one that could lead to a broader coverage in some media. Everyone's talking today how to save the planet. MorphOS is green computing, it works fast on recycled computers with a ow energy uptake (well, unless somehow a port for the POWER 7 pops out of the nothing, that is...). Even the butterfly matches this approach.

But the best approach would be make MorphOS believe you that it makes you more attractive and thus brings you the girls & boys you desire. Then you would have a major seller. You know, sex sells.
MorphOS - the sexy OS
Will think about it...

But in general it will be difficult to gain many new users, but I think a few thousand users is still a realistic. And to be honest, I am a bit disappointed that the mini port yielded only very few new users so far. I had expected a few more. Of course not a mass exodus, but a bit more. Maybe that the 1000 mark would have been reached by the end of the year, but still the 700 seems not to be reached. Anyway, those few who already came are very welcomed and important.

Going out now, cycling, freeing my mind.

May be, used Macs are very popular in Western Europe an in North Amirica, but in Russia...
Typical dialogue:
- Yes, good system... PowerPC? Mmm... Where I can buy HW?
- You can buy used Mac on eBay.
- ??? What? Used? Mac? eBay? F*** off!!!

Good points Zylesea, I was also hoping for much greater success of the MorphOS2.4 release on the G4 MacMini to bring us new users, but it does not appear to have made such a big difference. I also agree that a few thousand users is not an unrealistic goal to try to achieve for the MorphOS user base over the next couple of years. Maybe when the MorphOS program that makes you lose weight just by using it is finished and released the sales of MorphOS will really take off then.

@MobyDick, If it is really that hard for you to get a used G4 MacMini, I am sure that there are several users here that would assist you, or any of your friends in finding one to buy.