@ironfist
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Totally irrelevant.

Eee sold a lot of units when it was Linux only and barely any hope of installing anything different. That is proof that you can make a profit and not have to be running Windows. It could happen again if you have the right product and next time it could be another OS...

If you are still not convinced, how about the Nokia N810 ? Nowhere as popular as the Eee but it's a very nice product, running Maemo.

As much as I love MorphOS and my Peg, IMHO this market is drying up. EFIKA, SAM and older PPC Mac Minis are not powerful enough to be a main desktop machine and that is what most of the people who are willing to spend more money want.

Hardware direction is going towards embedded systems style; developers I have spoken to are turned away as soon as they think about how long a compile will take. I can't imagine they would accept developing on a host platform for a target.

I just can't imagine that there is no one willing to invest into a Netbook based on MPC8610 even with Linux running on top.
Most ppl i know that own a netbook use it for browsing and multimedia some of them use it for office stuff when they are in the university.
An 8610 Netbook running MOS would be a great low-end HTPC that is able to play HD maybe FULL-HD content with a better browser it would close that office gap.
So what about a 8610 Netbook with Linux for the short period and MOS as lontime goal doing all the stuff ppl expect from a netbook?

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Heard of the "One Laptop Per Hacker" MIPS based gdium project?
Seriously, aim you producst at people like us, who actually think running somewhat "strange" hardware is cool, we are here. The rest of the world dont give a damn if it doesnt run windows.

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This one really amazes me - what the heck do you mean with "right now"? ARM has been around even longer than powerpc, I have ten or more devices that are ARM based, most of them years old, some dating back more than a decade... newton, ipaq, cowon, zaurus, nslu2 ... there are so many well established names in the ARM business, most phones and PDAs have been ARM based since forever, if I want another ARM machine I have plenty to pick from, why would I or anyone else chose Genesi?

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It's the only compelling selling point Genesi have, at all. Really.
MorphOS aside, there is nothing Genesi has to offer the market, face it.

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If you provide a fairly well specified powerpc netbook, it might even be somewhat expencive, capable of running MorphOS and also open enough for Linux and *BSD, even I might be tempted to get one.

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This is nonsense, really. You could have said the same 5 years ago, and you can say it again in 5 years. Besides, there is windows for ARM. Yes, KDE4 is teh suck, but the marching morons seem quite content with KDE3 and Gnome, actually. The problem is not the OS nor the user interface, the problem is that the apps that "most users" want to run are made for Windows.

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Why dont you join the crowd and build some atom based netbook that can run Windows? Obviously that's the only thing that makes sense, huh?

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Oh, those insanely clever Ubuntu guys will write us a completely new Qt based desktop that will just totally rule? Yeah, that will be the day... haha

But if so, then what?

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You fail to mention _why_ Asus is dropping Linux - unsatisfied costumers!
There are numerous examples of stores selling Linux based Eee-machines without knowing that it's not windows, not warning people about it, even selling them a Linux based Eee along with windows software. A vast majority of the buyers do not want Linux, but do want the white 901. I personally would have bought the black one if I could get it with 4+16GB flash and no windows.

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I dont know anyone outside geekhood who owns a N700/N800/N8210 - do you?

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They are powerfull enough for us, but those who create them should not even try to target mainstream - it's pointless and a waste of resources.

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Huh.. most embedded development is done that way, always was. Why would that make developers turn away? And compiling is fast these days. Oh, and hardware direction is going towards virtualization these days, that is yesterdays hardware is software today. Certain people claim to have had MorphOS running on Qemu already, imagine running MorphOS on a KVM instance from an IBM pSeries or PowerStation, or even emulated from a fast Xeon/Core2?

[ Edited by kolla on 2009/1/30 10:02 ]

@kolla:



- CISC

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And there are less than 100 of you.

We wouldn't even be able to write off the office supplies cost, let alone the development of a new Pegasos.

If you want to fund it, go ahead..

[ Edited by Neko on 2009/1/30 19:05 ]

Actually just because Genesi has posted the schematics for the Pegasos2 doesn't mean that the work needed to manufacture a new run of motherboards wouldn't still be quite daunting.
The actual layout of a complicated 4 layer motherboard and the calculations necessary to produce the correct trace lengths is incredibly complicated. We may have Genesi's schematics, but we don't have their actually circuit board layouts. THAT's where the real complications are.
While the Peg2 design could easily be upgraded to as high as 1.7GHz with a slightly more powerful processor (the 7448), we are still dealing with a relatively slow G4 level system.
Alternately, we could look at the 8610 or the 8641 (which Freescale has published a motherboard schematic for), but are we going to be able to get the components? I can't even get an 8641D out of Freescale because they claim they don't have any for sampling yet.
If we're all really serious about this, we need to consider what's out there (in terms of processors and components) and then set our goals toward something plausible.
I look forward to everyone's input on that idea.
Jim

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They didn't offer matching coats and trousers ?
Sorry, I had to say it ;)

This is not true. When the Eee PC was first offered, they were very open with screenshots that looked nothing like Windows. The people who bought it did so because it was tiny, could edit files and do a bit of internet. It trailblazed the path for netbooks. It was only later, after they built up enough interest, that they considered going to Windows. Presumably with a slightly more powerful model and more favourable licence negotiated from MS; knowing that they could make the sales.

Why should a store have to "warn" people that a device is NOT Windows ? That seems bizarre marketing to me.

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My point was that there are products running a satisfactory version of Linux aimed at the general market; Matt was suggesting that Linux was not ready in some respect.

I know a lot of people who want small, portable computers for internet, editing documents and nothing more. They know that Mac OSX is cooler than Windows but they can't afford it. They don't care about Windows if the device is cheap and small.

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You misread my post. Let me sum up my last points more simply:

IMHO the majority of developers who are interested in MorphOS don't want 2 machines on their desks. They don't want to compile on a powerful machine in order to run on a real and much less powerful machine.

If developers don't write new software for MorphOS, then users won't be interested in buying a low power machine to run an OS that has no applications.

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It's only interesting from an academic point of view.

There are several things that are needed to secure an interesting future for our platform. The main thing is that it has to grow. At the current size the user base is too small to support the market. So what do we need in order to grow and who can do it ?

1. Hardware availability (Genesi, possibly others)
2. Nice development tools, SDK, support forums (MorphOS team, developers)
3. Modern web browser and internet clients (Developers, such as Marcin but don't expect 1 person to do it all)
4. Lively forums (users come and chat about their experiences, ask questions, share knowledge; maybe Targhan can oblige with some statistics, I would be interested to see the number of posts plotted against the number of page views)
5. Home brew software apps (users try to learn a language and do something interesting)

If there is any way to stimulate these 5 points we should do it. Or we can go back to the standard Amiga refrain,

1. Wait for something to happen. (2 more weeks)

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Well have you tried corrrecting them by telling they are wrong?

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We are talking about non-geek users here but never mind, why are they wrong ?

I recently needed to buy a laptop for working at home so I bought a MacBook Pro. I also have a Core Duo laptop at the office running Windows Vista, less than 2 years old. I have installed all updates and can say without a shadow of doubt that Windows Vista sucks. UAC sucks, explorer crashes almost every day, I get screen flicker, sidebar is annoying - I had to turn it off, the list goes on...

I used to use XP at a previous job and it was OK. Business-like. It was much better. I am not anti Windows per se, I just don't like the style. For example, when I adjust the software volume control why does it always have to "ping" ? Why do I have to squeeze everything onto a single screen ? etc.

I think it was Microsoft that invented drag and drop cut and paste (?) Please, please, please, please can we find a way to uninvent that ?

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Theres nothing "cool" in OSX.

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I am with you on this. My Vista installation lasted 45(!) minutes before going back to XP Pro. Vista was a biiig mistake on MS's half.

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XP Pro is without doubt the best major OS available, at least till Win7 is finished(I have heard). It sure has its flaws and is nowhere near perfect but it does the job. Recent years updates finally paid off. I am no Windows-fanboy, quite the opposite, I wish I could have a chance to use MorphOS but sadly atm I can't.

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Multi touch gestures ?

I know this is old technology but it's new to consumer electronics.

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Linux is a major OS and available; I would prefer Ubuntu or OpenSUSE any day.

XP Pro vs OSX ? Can you say "shell" ? I'm sorry, bash on cygwin cannot compare. Dock vs Start bar ? Single screen vs Spaces ? Oh, and try to switch languages without buying a localised version: in OSX it's one setting.

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And hows that "cool" for simple homeuser? You have to do better with that. I call and raise, billions of bytes of more software. Now that's something a homeuser will appreciate.

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Thats you and your opinion which is not the issue here. An average homeuser surely don't want to see any Linux variant if there's a very well known alternative option at hand. I don't blame them, I wouldn't want to run Linux at home either, I occasionally want to play a game and actually have some fun with the computer too. Same goes for the Mac aswell.

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I can say shell. And I can also say I really REALLY don't want to see commandprompt unless I really REALLY NEED to use it. Usually this applies only when using cryptic and complicated commands, which again, an average homeuser will not know how to use.
IMO Start-menu is just as good as a taskbar as most people have shortcuts to often used programs anyway. It does its simple job.
In my 25 years time in computing I have had the need to switch language in an operating system once, so one point goes to you right there :)


I think you're trying to justify things how YOU feel, and not by looking at the bigger picture. Majority don't want what you want.

OK, let me see if I've got the current state of the hardware correct. The Peg2 is no longer in production and is not Rohs compliant. The Efika is relatively slow and has limited memory and expansion capability. The SAM440EP is not supported by Morphos, is only slightly faster than the Efika (slower the the Pegasos), and only offers PCI expansion for video. G4 Macs would be nice, but they're hard to port to because Apple is not very forthcoming about the details of its hardware. The PS3 is too closed (no access to the RSX) and the cell processor is still proprietary.
So, a new computer doesn't sound like such a bad idea. However, the Marvell IV probably isn't one of the components we want to look at. It only has 2 4 lane PCI-e connections. The Freescale 8641D already has more than that built in. So, unless you want to look at adding a Marvell IV controller to something like an 8641D, the Marvell component looks weak (when connected to a 7447A or a 7448).
Also, what processor do we want to consider? The 7447A and the 7448 are the closest to the processors used in the Peg2, so they're the easiest to design in.
The 8640D is available, but its only a little faster than existing Peg2's G3 and G4 (and Morhpos isn't written to take advantage of dual cores). Also, it would require an almost total redesign of the board. The Freescale 8641D is listed as available by Freescale and Freescale has published a reference design for it. That design has its strengths and weaknesses (which we could discuss later), but in recent discussion with Freescale I've learned that they don't consider this chip to be in "Production Mode". So, we might have trouble obtaining that part.
Then there are the current unobtainable processors like the Cell and AMCC's Titan. If any of these new processors were available, they would offer us further options.
Also, no one has considered IBM. Their G5 was the direction Apple took (before going with Intel processors). While the G5 is significantly different (than the G4) , that's also an option.
Right now, I'm personally just waiting for Apple G4 ports. I would not be surprised to see both Morphos and Amiga OS4.1 running on that platform in the future.
But, second hand hardware is only going to get us so far.
So, as I've said before, I'd like to see what you all think in regard to your expectations for new hardware and what components might be used.
Jim

@ Jim

The most promising processors for a new ppc computer that is small, low cost, low power and has decent power for a single core non 64-Bit OS like MorphOS are the Freesacle 8610 and 8640.
For the 8610 there exists a development platform by NEC, the redtail. Unfortunately there's little information about that board to get on the net (and the little that is there is in Japanese).

Genesi have put their plans of a 8610 based board/netbook on hold, but I still guess a cooperation between the NEC redtail folks and Genesi/bplan could lead to soemthing fruitful.
I guess we're not in a particular hurry anyway, trains have left the staion aeons ago....

> Marvell IV

I think that would be "VI", not "IV".

> The 8640D is [...] only a little faster than existing Peg2's G3
> and G4

1. MPC8640 vs. "Peg2's G3":

core: 1.25 GHz e600 vs. 600 MHz PPC750CXe
cache: 1 MiB L2 vs. 256 KiB L2
bus: 500 MHz MPX (4 GB/s) vs. 133 MHz 60x (853 MB/s)

I wouldn't call this "only a little faster", neither core-wise nor cache-wise nor bus-wise.

2. MPC8640 vs. "Peg2's [...] G4":

core: 1.25 GHz e600 vs. 1.0 GHz e600
cache: 1 MiB L2 vs. 512 KiB L2
bus: 500 MHz MPX (4 GB/s) vs. 133* MHz MPX (1066 MB/s)

While 25% core speed increase can be considered "only a little faster", a bus speed increase of 275% and a L2 cache size increase of 100% really cannot in my book.


* The MPC7447 itself supports 166 MHz MPX (1333 MB/s) but since the Discovery II northbridge only supports up to 133 MHz MPX, the MPC7447's bus speed is restricted to that value on the Pegasos II.

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See all open windows by swiping 4 fingers down; scroll up, down, left and right in windows using two fingers, do rotations and zooms, etc. Very practical and useful for simple home users.

More software means nothing unless it is good.

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You totally ignored Linux as a mainstream OS and now you say people don't want Linux. Isn't that your opinion ? Have you actually used it ?

I believe many home users wouldn't care as long as they get fast internet experience and can access all their files. I think they go with the name they know and no thanks to MS marketing propaganda that says open source software is insecure.

If your real purpose is to play games you should get an XBox or a Playstation.

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What do I want ?

I think the majority of people are happy to buy small, cheap computers for surfing web, email and a bit of editing and if that is without Windows then they don't really mind. That is what Eee customers bought, it's crazy to say that most people who bought Eee thought they were getting a Windows box.

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And maybe only 4 of us at all interested in anything ARM.
I'm curious, what is the target market for the next Genesi products?

At least PowerPC is not something everyone is doing, allthough quite a few NAS have been PowerPC for a little while, new ones now seem to use lowend x86 SoCs, sadly. Will you go there as well?

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LOL - I knew it didnt look quite right

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Heh, what kind of customers (double check.. yes, correct this time) browse screenshots before buying? Most try them out in the store where they buy them. And "nothing like windows"? Are you kidding? The window decorations and colour theming tries to mimic windows XP as much as possible. For the record, I do have an eeePC 901 myself, it's what I'm typing this on.

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OK, around here the eeePC didnt really get that much attention with the 700 series, it wasnt until the 900 came around that everyone wanted one and the sales took off.

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Yeah well, they started doing that after a while, as more and more people came back wondering why they couldnt not install their regular software on it. Asus started feeling the preasure as eeepcs were returned or swapped out with windows versions.

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Well, I dont think it is either, years of experience with linux on PDAs and various other devices just gave me frustration, it's not only in the user interface, it's actually just as much in how linux, or rather any unix, works - it doesnt fit well into a world of memory cards, usb sticks, network coming and going etc. The only people I know that are satisfied are people that prefer linux everywhere anyhow, they tend to forgive all the stuff that doesnt work well, and their single most used argument is that is surely is better than windows.

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So... why dont they have an eeepc already?

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I suspect a majority of them already have at least 2 on their desks already.

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Why not? Why would anyone want to compile on an eeePC or nokia N810?

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Why? Look at AROS and VMWaros for example.

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Since when did we care about what the majority wants?

Sorry Andreas, I got the number wrong, but not the specs. The Marvell Vi still only has two 4 lane PCI-e channels.
Further would an 8640D be a better option than a 1.7 GHz 7448? I'm not sure. And no one has touched on the other processors I mentioned.
I'm definitely not that impressed with the 8610. Outside of a netbook, what would we use a processor with a built-in LCD controller for?
Finally, we still have to consider the amount of work involved in the layout of a new board. Unless someone like bplan steps up to do it we are going to need to find someone that's set up to do this kind of work. The only people I personally know make boards for medical monitoring equipment. While they have done stuff similar to this on the side I don't know that I could persuade them to consider it.
Do you have anybody in mind who might be willing to work on this?

> The Marvell Vi still only has two 4 lane PCI-e channels.

Yes. I did not indicate otherwise.

> would an 8640D be a better option than a 1.7 GHz 7448? I'm not sure.

Me too. The L2 cache size is on par (1 MiB). While the 7448 core is 36% higher clocked (1.7 GHz vs. 1.25 GHz), the 8640 bus is 150% higher clocked (500 MHz vs. 200 MHz). What is more important, faster core clock or faster bus clock, depends on the kind of application. (I'm ignoring the dual core option of the 8640(D) here as it would be of no use for MorphOS, which is the context here.)
But I would guess a board without separate northbridge chip is more easily and cheaply developable and producable.

> no one has touched on the other processors I mentioned.

The PPC970(MP) is actually used in Fixstars' PowerStation. And even the PWRficient (that you didn't mention, btw) is actually used in a real product although its (non-)availability on the free market can be considered the same as Cell's.

> Outside of a netbook, what would we use a processor with a built-in
> LCD controller for?

A board designer doesn't have to use the DIU. He can easily ignore it if it's not needed for the purpose of the board.

> Do you have anybody in mind who might be willing to work on this?

None, unfortunately.

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Yes I did. As long as only my geekiest friends use Linux I refuse to consider it as a mainstream OS. And yes, I have used Linux, and yes its my opinion.

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Agree. So far it just isn't so. And for example many people buy a Mac only because its "hip". Or was. Movieindustry for example boosted Mac-sales a lot. And my or yours mom really don't care about MS marketing propaganda about open source software, trust me on this

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Have

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I am aware of two people personally who thought they were buing a Windows-computer. As a matter of fact the other one got a refund based on lack of information from salesperson about the product. I wouldn't go as far as to say majority of people thought they were buying a Win-machine but it has happened. All ads I have seen about minilaptops has had a Vista-like "screen" on them, btw.

Long story short, people are a bit afraid of Linux. Partly because it just didn't succeed as a homecomputer OS as it should and has a reputation of being complicated, and partly because most people want something "secure" and known.

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We aren't talking about us, we are talking about the majority

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That's true. Another point, I just bought a MacBook Pro, not because it's hip or the OS. For me the major selling point was the design, apart from the glossy screen MacBooks are by far the best laptops. I went to a very large store with a massive selection of laptops and all of them were low quality compared to the Mac.

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OK, I believe you. But I am sure you have experienced this conversation where you say you like MorphOS and the other person says "Why do you hate Windows ?" because Windows is the default and they never considered there might be another option.

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On the contrary, I think Linux has been very successful as a home computer OS. It's very "Amiga-ish" to think that an OS is only successful if it beats Windows (which is not going to happen, by any OS, in the next 20 years).

Linux is also very secure (unless you read MS propaganda...)

Getting back on topic, MorphOS has exactly the same challenges as Linux in terms of recognition and desirability from the general consumer. It's unrealistic to expect to challenge Windows or Mac but I think we can broaden the appeal and grow a bit. For example, recent events such as Origyn web browser really help.