I just wondered if Amiga or PC or MAC formatted ZIP disks / Zip drives are supported with MorphOS, as the disk, and the drive don't show up on Ambient when I insert a ZIP disk.

I can see the ZIP100 is recognised in Poseidon, but then there is no icon or visual representation that the drive/disk is accessible on MorphOS.

Anyone know different, or can give me an idea how to solve this situation?

Back in Peg1 days I had a IDE-ZIP installed and it worked with some mountlists found in Aminet.

You might also wanna try if tools/Mounter offer anything here.

OK, I'll try that, and I may even try the Amiga OS3.9 ZIP mountlists as they may work, but thanks for the quick reply

They work fine. I used an IDE ZIP drive I found in a dumpster to create image files from my old discs without a problem.

I hooked it up to an USB<>IDE interface and used mounter to mount the partitions on it.

A simple copy from RAWDISK: created 1:1 image files, which I now can mount using FileImageCtrl.

Geit

[ Edited by geit 04.11.2013 - 19:40 ]

OK, but my reason for asking this question was that I have some previously formatted AMIGA Zip disks, formatted with FFS, and I want to be able to read those on MorphOS wih a USB ZIP100 or ZIP250 drive, but I don't see any standard support for ZIP drives/disks. I would have thought they would have been catered for as standard, but if I can work out a way to overcome the lack of in-built support then I will.

I know 100MB, even 250MB, doesn't go far these digital storage days, but sometimes you can be glad of a more safe / permanent backup on a disk that is not always spinning and prone to mechanical or electrical failure.

By the way, what is "FileImageCtrl"?

I see "FileImageCtrl" mentioned in the xDMS package, but as far as I am aware, it is not included with it, and neither is it a standard MorphOS command as far as I am aware.

> what is "FileImageCtrl"? [...] neither is it a standard MorphOS command as far as I am aware.

"Tools/FileImageCtrl [NEW]
A utility to control FileImage.device"

"Devs/Fileimage.device [NEW]
A device that makes it possible to mount disk image files"

Source: http://www.morphos-team.net/releasenotes/2.4

OK Andreas thanks for the "FileImageCtrl" information, I didn't realise it had ben part of MOS for such a long time, but I didn't find it useful to me so that didn't get me any further to getting my Amiga FFS formatted ZIP disks recognised on my system.

Anyway, I've worked out a way on my own to get my ZIP disks recognised after the MOS system starts up on my Mac Mini.

I copied the "mount" command and ZIP mountlist from the OS3.9 CD, and amended the tooltypes to suit the usbscsi.device, and unit number, and put it (them) in a folder in my System partition and that has allowed me to mount my ZIP disks and recognise them on MorphOS. I just have to check which unit Poseidon has recognised the ZIP drive is connected to, and mount/double-click that icon.

In fact I've had to add several mountlists as I cannot be certain which unit will be the ZIP drive, as I don't always connect it, and there may be other units connected, so I have had to make as many mountlists as I have USB ports to ensure it is recognised when I plug it in, and insert a ZIP disk that is FFS formatted, but that seems to do the trick.

I don't seem to be able to get the IOTools utility (from Amiga OS3.9) to recognise where the ZIP disk is on the system, as it seems to expect either a traditional SCSI device or a DOS device which it doesn't seem to find as yet. If anyone else has managed to get this to work then I really like to know how they managed it - I have tried adjusting the tooltypes but no luck.

> I've worked out a way on my own to get my ZIP disks recognised

That's nice to hear.

> I copied the "mount" command [...] from the OS3.9 CD

Doesn't it work with MorphOS' own 'mount' command?

I had a look in the SYS:C folder and there is no mount command in there, but there is in the MOSSYS:C folder, but the ZIP mountlist from the Amiga OS 3.9 CD did not seem to find the MOSSYS:C folder so did not find the mount command, in fact it threw up a KEYWORD missing error requester before I put the Mount command from the CD in the SYS:C folder.

I think it was more than likely expecting to find the SYS: or C: folder and just didn't recognise the MOSSYS:C folder

[ Edited by NewSense 05.11.2013 - 17:44 ]

> the ZIP mountlist from the Amiga OS 3.9 CD did not seem to find the MOSSYS:C
> folder so did not find the mount command, in fact it threw up a KEYWORD missing
> error requester before I put the Mount command from the CD in the SYS:C folder.
> I think it was more than likely expecting to find the SYS: or C: folder and just didn't
> recognise the MOSSYS:C folder

This doesn't sound right. It shouldn't be necessary to use a 3rd party 'mount' command over the one coming with MorphOS. If your installation isn't borked, then MOSSYS:C is in the path and is accessible via the C: assign. Furthermore, it's not the mountlist searching/finding/recognizing the 'mount' command but the other way round, i.e. you have to execute the 'mount' command and give the mountfile as an argument. This can be done in the shell (or in a script) or via a project icon for the mountlist that has the 'mount' command entered as the default tool.
If what you did works for you then fine, but I can't say I'd recommend it doing this way and I'm not sure this isn't paving the way for any potential future problems.

Quote:
But it wasn't found by MorphOS, or should I say, it doesn't work OK, when I just double-clicked the icon - and it prompted/threw up the error requester - INVALID KEYWORD. I just tried it again, at your insistence - I took out the 68k "Mount" command from the SYS:C folder and re-started my ZIP drive after ejecting the disk which unmounts the device/mountlist command. I even, as a second method, copied the PPC "mount" command into the SYS:C folder but the "INVALID KEYWORD" error requester popped up again. There must be some incompatibility with the PPC "mount" command compared to the 68K "mount" command - I just know that the PPC version does not allow the ZIP icon to mount the device, and this method is the only one I have found that works.

I would really have thought that the ZIP drive, whether that be the 100MB or the 250MB, possibly even the 750MB version would have been supported as standard with MorphOS, and maybe it still could, but it seems there is some work to be done to create a functional mountlist/mount command within the PPC framework of MorphOS that will actually mount the drive successfully. The tricky thing for the USB support is that if you have several USB ports/hubs attached then there may need to be several mountlists, or an automated mountlist created/mounted when a ZIP disk is recognised at one of the attached ports/units, as otherwise when the device is plugged into an active USB port it does not get mounted until you know which unit it is in, and double-click on the correct ZIP icon that is setup to mount that specific unit number, especially if it not unit 0 or even unit 1. Which is the case with my setup, as I have about 14 USB connections via hubs, and adapters on my Mac Mini.
Quote:
Double-clicking the ZIP icon initiates the "mount" command as that command is the default tool in the ZIP icon to initiate the ZIP mountlist.
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I cannot see any other way of getting it to work at present, but if someone from the development team wants to point me in a more system friendly way of solving this situation then I'd be only too happy to hear from them, but in the meantime I am managing OK with my own solution, though I'd obviously prefer a system friendly method that didn't involve using a 68K command in the MorphOS system.

@ NewSense,

While I admire your persistence, I am also somewhat baffled by it.
I have several old Zip drives stored in various places, but have never felt the urge to try to use them under MorphOS.
I can understand that you have some old files that you would like to use under MorphOS, but you couldn't come up with a method of transferring them?
Honestly, once you have it working, do you really anticipate using that drive for anything other than reading these disk and copying over the files to another storage medium?

Frankly, once solid state devices like pen drives outgrew the capacity of a Zip disk (to the point where they are many times larger) I was perfectly thrilled to ditch the mechanically based medium.

Good luck with your project, but personally, I would have tried to find someone with an Amiga equipped with a Zip drive and asked them to transfer the files to another medium.
It sounds less time consuming than what you have been doing.

The method I've used was really quite quick. I just got my OS 3.9 CD, and copied the files I needed from it. I was just surprised there was no USB support for the ZIP drive, seeing as it had been such a good backup medium - up to fairly recent years.

However, I take your point, and of course I do have access to USB SD/CF, and other USB storage media, but I had some data that included backups of docs, etc, that were on the ZIP disks that were very quick - once I'd figured out how to mount the ZIP disk, that I had created on my Amiga, which I also still have working, and fortunately also USB hardware to copy it to/from, if it had come to that, but I've worked out what I wanted to do within MorphOS, which is better for me, than maybe for others.

Trying to find someone else in the decimated Amiga community with the right hardware, namely a working SCSI or Parallel ZIP drive, would be almost like hoping to track down a hen's tooth.

When dinosaurs where walking on the earth I used Mounter to mount zip disks.. worked on Amiga 3.x quite easily. Even if you got your zip disk to mount, if you find interest and time you could see if it works still:

http://aminet.net/package/disk/misc/Mounter

MorphOS comes with SYS:Tools/Mounter.
Try to start it, find your ZIP, find your partition, select it and click the mount button. Tada, it should be mounted.

If you still have issues and continue to use your 68k mount command, I would suggest you rename it as C:Mount68k and change the mountlist icon accordingdly to use C:Mount68k instead of C:Mount.
This way you avoid more problems.

> it wasn't found by MorphOS, or should I say, it doesn't work OK, when I just double-clicked
> the icon - and it prompted/threw up the error requester - INVALID KEYWORD.

A command not being found and the same command throwing an error message are mutually exclusive. If the 'mount' command issues this message then this must mean that it *is* found.

> There must be some incompatibility with the PPC "mount" command compared
> to the 68K "mount" command

Yes, this seems to indicate an incompatibility, bug or missing feature in the MorphOS 'mount' command which I think should be investigated by the MorphOS Team.

>> it's not the mountlist searching/finding/recognizing the 'mount' command but
>> the other way round, i.e. you have to execute the 'mount' command and give
>> the mountfile as an argument. This can be done [...] via a project icon for the
>> mountlist that has the 'mount' command entered as the default tool.

> Double-clicking the ZIP icon initiates the "mount" command as that command
> is the default tool in the ZIP icon to initiate the ZIP mountlist.

Yes, that's what I said. I just objected to the idea that the mountlist was the component that had to search/find/recognize the 'mount' command.

Mounter is even able to create a proper working mountfile, without some broken argument that causes mounting to fail in the first place.

The "invalid keyword" error points to an error within the mount file, which gets tollerated by the third party mount command. So instead of fixing the problem you installed a mount command which ignores it.


[ Edited by geit 06.11.2013 - 20:39 ]

A few years ago, I tried to give away several ZIP 100 drives and had zero takers (although I might have had better luck if they had been SCSI drives).

At one time, I had one in every computer I owned as I could download huge files at school or work and then transfer them to my PC at home. But first CD-RW disks, then USB drives made this pointless.

Quote:
I've tried that numerous times. Mounter is set to AUTODETECT, but it doesn't detect the FastFileSystem on the ZIP disk, just lists the device using UNKNOWNFILESYSTEM, and the buttons are ghosted to Mount/Unmount the volume/partition, so it doesn't automatically select the FastFileSystem, even though that option is in the context/dropdown menu, and also I've put the FFS68k version in Sys:L drawer.

When I specifically choose the FFS in the dropdown/context menu it then unghosts the Mount/Unmount buttons - but not until then, and even when I click on the mount button, it does do go through some process, as there is disk activity on the ZIP drive mechanism/motor, but it doesn't MOUNT the ZIP disk.

ONLY when I double-click the ZIP icon from the Amiga OS 3.9 CD does it actually recognise there is a disk in the drive, and show it in Ambient, virtually immediately.

The MorphOS mount command/GUI does not do anything to mount the ZIP disk, AFAIK.
Quote:
I have done that, and I agree this might be a better way to keep my 68k "mount" command out of the MorphOS system files - thanks for that suggestion

Quote:
I tried that, and it creates a text file, but if I left the AUTODETECT on it doesn't list a filesystem, in the created mountlist, for the device/disk/volume/partition, and if I do manually select FFS then it does show the FastFileSystem in the text-mountfile, but how do I use that on MorphOS - where does it go, and does it need an Icon associated with it for it to be useable as it won't change it's filetype from tool to project even when I save it as such, and list the mount command as it's default tool.

It's all very well the finger of blame being pointed at me, but hey guys .... it's not my fault it doesn't work, even when you are telling me it should, and in any case my method works OK for me, and I solved the problem as far as I was concerned without any reply from anyone from the development team, before I got "told off".

Give me a system compliant solution - not ear-ache, and of course I'll use it.
Quote:
I have to say I am taking a lot of "flak" here for getting a ZIP disk to be recognised on MorphOS that does not seem to work using the system tools available, and in any case - how am I supposed to "fix" the MorphOS/PPC "mount" command so that it works and mounts my ZIP disk?

Frankly I'd appreciate more concern that the system isn't doing/allowing what it should be able to do with what was hardware that really should have been supported when MorphOS was originally written IMHO, as the ZIP disk was quite a standard piece of hardware a few years ago, and a standard piece of hardware for the Amiga that many users migrated from, like me, should have been supported, again IMHO.

Quote:
Precisely my point, these ZIP drives were almost essential for an Amiga user, back in the day, and even now USB on the Amiga is a very expensive, if at all available, for many Amiga fans, though I am lucky that I have USB cards in all my towered A1200s, and A4000 desktop system - each with a Mediator and Spider USB card.

Quote:
Yes I agree, unless you have some older files on ZIP disks that you're ZIP drive attached to your Amiga has failed on.

> if I do manually select FFS then it does show the FastFileSystem in the text-mountfile,
> but how do I use that on MorphOS - where does it go

Usage is the same as on AmigaOS, i.e. mountlists go into SYS:Devs/DOSDrivers if you want the device to be mounted at boot, or into SYS:Storage/DOSDrivers if you want to mount it at will.

> does it need an Icon associated with it for it to be useable

I think in Devs: it doesn't require one, but does so in Storage: as there it's activated by user double-click.

> as it won't change it's filetype from tool to project even when I save it as such,
> and list the mount command as it's default tool.

If you can enter a default tool it must be a project icon. Tool icons lack the input option for the default tool.

> how am I supposed to "fix" the MorphOS/PPC "mount" command so that it works
> and mounts my ZIP disk?

Obviously, you can't. But in case geit is right in that the mountlist is to blame rather than the MorphOS 'mount' command, you may be able to correct the offending line in the mountlist in order to satisfy the stricter implementation of the 'mount' command.

As a good resource for information on the 'mount' command and mountlists I recommend this:
http://amiga.sourceforge.net/amigadevhelp/phpwebdev.php?keyword=Mount&funcgroup=AmigaDOS

Quote:
OK - thought as much.
Quote:
OK, but if I have to plug the ZIP drive into a port that is different than I usually use then I need to use another icon, or alter/edit the icon tooltypes to indicate the correct unit.

To get around this situation I have created a drawer/folder with as many Icons as I have USB ports, so if I use a different unit I just need to double-click on the one that is accordingly specified in Poseidon/Trident.

I realise that Poseidon sees the ZIP drive, and binds it to the mass-storage.class but it is not able to "mount" it onto the Ambient desktop - this as far as I am concerned is where the "fix" needs implementing, because if the system then mounted it like it would any normal HDD or CD/CDR/CDRW/DVD/DVDR/DVDRW drive then I would not need these mountlists which are irritating to have to use, and at the risk of repeating myself, ZIP USB mounting should really have been possible when MorphOS was originally conceived, when ZIP drives were more popular, then we'd not need to be discussing this situation now.

I should also mention that I don't see any DOSdrivers in the System/Devs/DOSdrivers folder/drawer - ONLY in the MorphOS folder/drawer, which is the system assigned MOSSYS: as far as I understand it all. So is that where the DOSdrivers should be put, OR if they aren't MOSSYS files then am I supposed to place them in the SYS:Devs/DOSdrivers folder/drawer?

Quote:

I think you are misunderstanding what I am trying to say - The system created mountlist which shows up, not surprisingly, as a .txt file, BUT it won't change it's filetype from tool to project even when I try to save it as such.

So, even if I create a Mountlist using MOUNTER I cannot get it to work with "mount68k" as I cannot change it from a "tool" to a "project" type to assign a default tool.

If I created an icon for the mountlist for MorphOS would it then be possible to save the file as a "project" to then allow me to assign a default tool - this really is very frustrating, and at the moment my simple method of explaining how I got to mount my ZIP disk is turning into a "nightmare".

Here I am spending time, "justifying" what I have to do to get around the limitations of the MorphOS mounting of such a device - as though it's all my fault, when to me it clearly is a failing of those who have developed the OS.

Quote:

I feel sure Geit knows what the ZIP mountlist icon tooltype would look like, activate, startup, device, unit, and the rest of the mountlist is basicaly the same as the MorphOS system generated mountlist that Mounter created, so I don't know what else would be likely to be causing the issue.

Anyway, here is the mountlist created by MorphOS Mounter

/*
* usbscsi.device/1: Extra - - unknown -
*/

Device = usbscsi.device
Unit = 1
Flags = 0
Filesystem = L:FastFileSystem
SectorSize = 512
SectorsPerBlock = 1
Surfaces = 1
BlocksPerTrack = 1
LowCyl = 196598
HighCyl = 196607
Reserved = 2
PreAlloc = 0
Interleave = 0
Buffers = 100
BufMemType = 0
MaxTransfer = 0x00FFFFFF
Mask = 0xFFFFFFFE
DosType = 0x00000000
StackSize = 16384
Priority = 5
GlobVec = -1
Mount = 1

Here is the Mountlist that works that I got from the Amiga OS3.9 CD

FileSystem = L:FastFileSystem
Flags = 0
Surfaces = 1
SectorsPerTrack = 68
SectorSize = 512
Reserved = 2
Interleave = 0
Buffers = 136
BufMemType = 1
MaxTransfer = 0x001FE000
Mask = 0xFFFFFFFE
BootPri = -127
StackSize = 1024
Priority = 10
DosType = 0x444F5303
LowCyl = 2
HighCyl = 2890
Mount = 1
Activate = 1
GlobVec = -1

You should also bear in mind that the only stumbling block for me to get my ZIP disk/drive mounted on Ambient was the "MOUNT" PPC/MOS command that I had to swap for the 68k "MOUNT" command, which I have since renamed as "mount68k" - and NOT the mountlist, though there are subtle differences between the 2 mountlists, which I am sure anyone can see..

Quote:

Had a look at that, and have bookmarked it, but I'm not sure it helps me in this situation, but may do in the future, so thanks for that.

I still feel like I am being "backed into a corner" for "upsetting" the MorphOS system commands, rather than being offered as much support, without reservations, and possibly even offered an apology for what's been said, as I feel you should all encourage people to report such issues, as at the moment I feel like I'm in trouble for trying to get MOS to do something it should but doesn't.

@ NewSense

You know, to this day I have an inherent distrust of electronic storage mediums because of crap like this.

That's probably why you will never see me with an e-reader.

I can put down a book, pick it up ten years latter, and hey the batteries haven't run down.

Technology is both a boon and a curse.

If you have a look at the startup-sequence, you will see it mounts files in both mossys:devs/dosdrivers/ and devs:dosdrivers/.
So you can add your own mountlist files into devs:dosdrivers (aka sys:devs/dosdrivers). As the whole mossys content is wiped out during every system update.


About the impossible to save "Mount68k" icon tool...

The tool path is saved into the icon file (i.e. some blah.info). So you need an icon file before you can add a tool and save...
Ambient doesn't magically add an icon file when you press save.
My own favourite way to do it is to right-click over an icon, select "Information..." and drag any other REAL AND EXISTING icon laying on my desktop (f.e. your SYS: icon as there should be a SYS:disk.info file on all MorphOS setups) on the default icon displayed in the information window.
This way, Ambient knows you want to change (or create in this very case) the icon image and will create an icon file when you will press save.
Then change the type to Project, set C:Mount68k as the default tool and press save. You will have an icon file (blah.info) containing C:Mount68k as the default tool. This always works. If it doesn't then I badly explained or you didn't understand something.