EAB Post

"And Windows isn't the only culprit here... all current OSs have these kinds of issues. Even AmigaOS can get really slow over issues like layer locking (there's a video up on YouTube which shows MorphOS, essentially cloning the AmigaOS, failing against MacOS on opening multiple web browser instances, due to some of this stuff). There is a ton of room for optimization."

Haynie might be wrong on the cause of the issue demonstrated in that video (I don't know), but at least Piru confessed this was an area where MorphOS could improve:

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=7824&start=69

Well, he might be wrong for the reason, but still: this is a problem, and has always been... video memory management has always been a problem with the Amiga. I remember having to close windows with lots of icons to have enough chip ram, or even lowering the WB's depth in order to run some apps/games. My impression is that Windows/Mac never had such problems with the video ram and multiple windows opened (they do have other problems, that's for sure: but that's not the point here). So ok: before, the chip ram was not only used for graphics, but for sound, and data as well, but now that we have RTG, and no more such "chip" ram, this isn't the case anymore...

So: what's so different regarding to windows memory management between the Amiga/MorphOS and other OS (be it Unix/X, OSX, Windows (with or without Aero),...) that causes the whole system to crawl so easily (I know this is one of the worst possible scenarios, but still, it's quite easy to do it) ?

We all know MorphOS is faster than OSX in lots of operations because there are a lot less overhead... But it's also a lot faster to crawl :-

[ Edited by Leo 18.08.2011 - 20:59 ]

Quote:

If I recall correctly you could almost halt Amiga 500 by opening ten windows to a same screen

Who gives a crap.. I just don't understand where is that comming from.

>MorphOS, essentially cloning the AmigaOS,

If MorphOS was just a clone of Amiga OS, ik wouldn't be using it.

Haynie is like a broken record.

Quote:
Juste forget it. What's mentionned is a valid point in any case... Be MorphOS an AmigaOS clone, a reimplementation of AmigaOS, its spiritual son, a better AmigaOS, a next gen AmigaOS, or whatever: the problem is that by simply opening 5 browser windows (that are not even fullscreen), the system crawls.

[ Edited by Leo 19.08.2011 - 09:15 ]

"It's spiritual son" ... I like that

@Leo

On such a machine you just don't enable 3d layers. There's nothing more to add, really.

And by the way, when windows lacks vram, display gets randomly corrupted (nothing properly refreshed anymore and so on).

[ Edited by Fab 19.08.2011 - 12:30 ]

Opening muliple PDF records has a ten page limit.
Will try on the Mac Side to see if it hangs

The point is he didn't need to mention MorphOS to make that point or to give an example. He just chose to once again make himself look a bit childish.

Quote:

No it does not? I've managed to open 14 (fourteen) Odyssey windows with virtually no slowdowns and would gladly open more if my computer didn't have "only" 1 GB of RAM. Now, do you believe me or should I record a video and upload it to YouTube?

|||

[ Edited by Velcro_SP 06.09.2011 - 06:19 ]

Quote:
There is to add: on such a machine, you do not crawl the OS by opening 5 browser windows. Question is: why ?

Why on the Amiga opening a window will immediately eat VRAM/ChipRam, no matter what mode (3D layers or not) is enabled, thus quicikly limiting what you can do while on any other OS it's not the case (or you may open a lot more before problems happen) ?

koszer,
Quote:

Do it and post it as a reply to that other one,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvmWIqqRR-g

Just in case you didn't know.

I just tried it with 4 OWB windows each with 5 tabs, including that actual html5 video, little video ram free I was getting some slowdown, but it was still better than that video..

As Fab wrote, don|t enable enhanced display when you do things like that with that amount of VRAM. I can open a dozen OWB windows on my mini w/o big slowdown while not using enhanced display, while it gets clumpsy w/ enhanced display starting from about 5 windows on (1680x1050 and 64MB VRAM).
An (optional) automatic switch to non enhanced display in those situations would be a great thing.

> no matter what mode (3D layers or not) is enabled

According to Fab in posting #9 the issue shown in the video only occurs when it's enabled. Do you think he's wrong?

I am not asking how to limit the problem: I'm asking why it happens, and why so early (see the MorphOS/OSX comparison)...

> each with 5 tabs

Tabs only affect RAM, not VRAM. When I open tab after tab and also load pages in them my amount of free VRAM does not decrease. This is with Enhanced Display enabled.

> I am not asking how to limit the problem

And I'm not telling how to limit the problem but just replying to your "no matter what mode" statement.

> I'm asking why it happens

But does "it" even happen with Enhanced Display disabled as you suggested?

Quote:

Because the system swaps huge hunks of mem between RAM and VRAM without AGP mode implemented. From what I know this should be fixed in next release (2.8?). As for now - you can either switch Enhanced Display off or switch to a better computer.

I think a good idea would be an option where the gfx system avoids VRAM to RAM (but not RAM to VRAM) copyings altogether. What this means is that basically all bitmaps (especially window bitmaps) will be in RAM (and all gfx operations in it software rendered). This bitmap buffer in RAM will never go away. At any possible point the gfx system may "attach" a real VRAM bitmap to the RAM bitmap. The two bitmaps are kept in sync (maybe in realtime by repeating gfx operations done to RAM bitmap also in VRAM bimap connected to it. Or maybe only at specific times using things like damage list to keep track of what areas of VRAM bitmap are not yet in sync). Whenever a window bitmap needs to be composited to the screen the gfx system makes sure that real VRAM bitmap is attached so it can do the compositing hw accelerated. If system is low on free VRAM it can kill any other VRAM bitmaps connected to RAM bitmaps but it does not need to do the VRAM to RAM swapping as the RAM bitmap is always there and up to date.

Doing it like this causes some speed loss but I think this is how other OSes avoid described problems on systems with low VRAM.

Suppose I might as well dig out this oldie but goodie:

http://mrdoob.com/lab/javascript/effects/ie6/

Not that unrealistic emulation of Windows under heavy load.

[ Edited by stephen_robinson 21.08.2011 - 15:40 ]