Why not older PS3 OtherOS as target?
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4897 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    >> And the PPE alone is even less suited for modern gaming.

    > That is one area where our opinions differ.

    Huh? You really think that the PPE alone is not less suited to modern gaming than PPE+SPEs? Why do PS3 games make use of the SPEs then? Wouldn't it be easier to just use the PPE and ignore the hard-to-program SPEs if the result can be the same or even better without them?

    > It seems quite well suited to gaming.

    The PPE is a dual-threaded in-order 64-bit Power Architecture core with an ordinary AltiVec/VMX unit. I don't see anything in it that makes it particularly suited to gaming. There's a reason why Sony wanted to have it accompanied by the SPEs and also why PS3 games use those SPEs.


    And it ought to be noted that Microsoft, when the decided to 'borrow' from the design, did not bother with the SPEs and instead multiplied the PPE units.

    Further, what makes you think most programs DO use the SPEs?
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »10.01.14 - 20:40
    Profile
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4897 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:

    It's also used in server blades, TV sets, video transcoding cards and probably several other things.




    Blade servers yes, the Toshiba SPE stand alone apps you seem to be referring to here did not make it to market.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »10.01.14 - 20:42
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10977 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >>> GFX and CPU are great. [...] you get BlueRay, nice GFX, great great CPU

    >> If you say so...

    > No, IBM sais so

    The manufacturer of the CPU himself saying so is all the more reason to be sceptical about it. Besides (all explained to you already), the GPU may be great and nice but can't be accessed by OtherOS fully due to hypervisor, and Blu-ray support needs UDF 2.50+.

    >>> with many SPUs

    >> MorphOS would have to implement support for them first. I doubt this would be worthwile
    >> given that such code wouldn't be usable on any other current or future MorphOS platform.

    > that would be step closer to something others dont have. I havent seen any other PPU CPU.

    We've been talking about the SPUs at this point, not about the PPU. Linux and BSD on PS3 can make use of them, so others do have it on the same hardware. And the fact that no other current or future MorphOS platform does/will have them is something I wouldn't regard as an advantage. You'd have to scrap all code written for them when moving to another CPU without SPUs.

    >>> Maybe someone could somewhat add some RAM to the board?

    >> Such hacking would be no basis for undertaking a MorphOS port.

    > And using Apples is?

    Yes, because no user needs to treat his PPC Mac with a soldering iron just to use MorphOS on it. It runs as is. Hardest thing is changing the graphics card which is something almost everybody should be able to do, which in turn "somewhat add some RAM to the board" is not with no slots available. (And that's not taking into account the low probability that the PS3 would even accept or recognize more RAM or the bad availability of XDR RAM.)
  • »10.01.14 - 21:04
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10977 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >>>> And the PPE alone is even less suited for modern gaming.

    >>> That is one area where our opinions differ.

    >> You really think that the PPE alone is not less suited to modern gaming than
    >> PPE+SPEs? Why do PS3 games make use of the SPEs then? Wouldn't it be
    >> easier to just use the PPE and ignore the hard-to-program SPEs if the result
    >> can be the same or even better without them?
    >> The PPE is a dual-threaded in-order 64-bit Power Architecture core with an
    >> ordinary AltiVec/VMX unit. I don't see anything in it that makes it particularly
    >> suited to gaming. There's a reason why Sony wanted to have it accompanied
    >> by the SPEs and also why PS3 games use those SPEs.

    > it ought to be noted that Microsoft, when the decided to 'borrow' from the design,
    > did not bother with the SPEs and instead multiplied the PPE units.

    Yes, according to game coders, three symmetric PPEs with gaming-optimized AltiVec/VMX128 are easier to program games for than one PPE with ordinary AltiVec/VMX plus several asymmetric SPEs. But, and this is where I want to stress my point above, this doesn't change that one PPE plus several SPEs offer way more aggregated performance for gaming than just one PPE.

    > what makes you think most programs DO use the SPEs?

    I already answered this question of yours more than 3 years ago there:

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=6993&start=68

    Your answer to my explanation back then was: "Probably true".
  • »10.01.14 - 21:22
    Profile
  • vox
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    vox
    Posts: 462 from 2003/11/25
    From: Belgrade
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:

    I already answered this question of yours more than 3 years ago there:


    Thanks.

    Well take it as high end better then PA Semi ... and maybe even Freescale X2000 in some aspects. Then next platform could be similar ARM?

    I believe its advanced concept to SMP/AMP, even I do not code.

    Other things ... well if Linux can do it, we can port from them :-)
    ------------------------------------------
    x1000 user, ASAP Vampire Standalone user, future MOS user
    YT: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdHl_msNWHEVPf229h_gijQ
  • »10.01.14 - 21:28
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10977 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> It's also used in [...] TV sets, video transcoding cards [...]

    > the Toshiba SPE stand alone apps you seem to be referring to here did not make it to market.

    I don't know what "Toshiba SPE stand alone apps" (SpursEngine?) *you* are referring to here, but I'm referring to the Toshiba REGZA series of TV sets incorporating full Cell B.E. chips:

    http://www.google.com/search?q=site:toshiba.co.jp+regza+%22cell+broadband%22
    http://medical.toshiba.com/about/pioneering-technology/ (see "2009")
  • »10.01.14 - 21:47
    Profile
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4897 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    >> It's also used in [...] TV sets, video transcoding cards [...]

    > the Toshiba SPE stand alone apps you seem to be referring to here did not make it to market.

    I don't know what "Toshiba SPE stand alone apps" (SpursEngine?) *you* are referring to here, but I'm referring to the Toshiba REGZA series of TV sets incorporating full Cell B.E. chips:

    http://www.google.com/search?q=site:toshiba.co.jp+regza+%22cell+broadband%22
    http://medical.toshiba.com/about/pioneering-technology/ (see "2009")


    Really? They actually offer to let me buy a Spurs engine development board.
    That idea went no where (Spurs).

    And at the price range the Regia lines serves, there won't be many of these sold.
    They are not a main line consumer item.

    IBM and its partners promised a range of applications and few materialized.

    Although the Cell's design is well suited to multimedia applications.

    Then again, its reliance on XDR ram makes it quite impractical.

    And the later derivatives that would have used more conventional memory are eol'd.

    The Cell would appear to be a dead end.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »10.01.14 - 23:02
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10977 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I'm referring to the Toshiba REGZA series of TV sets incorporating full Cell B.E. chips

    > Really?

    Yes, I'm really referring to them and they really incorporate full Cell B.E. chips and they really came to market.

    > They actually offer to let me buy a Spurs engine development board.

    For developing "SPE stand alone apps"? I'm not sure it can even exist "stand alone" as the SPEs require a general purpose core or CPU for control and distribution purposes, like the PPE in the Cell or the x86 CPU in Toshiba's Qosmio series of laptops.

    > That idea went no where (Spurs).

    At least there were actual products using the SpursEngine:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpursEngine#Commercialization

    We were talking about some of them there:

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7383&forum=11&start=3
    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7383&forum=11&start=17

    > at the price range the Regia lines serves, there won't be many of these sold.
    > They are not a main line consumer item.

    This may be. The point I was attempting to make is that the Cell has not only been used in the PS3 and in supercomputers (like was claimed in this thread) but in other devices as well.
    Btw, in 2011 Toshiba has switched the REGZA line from Cell to a hexa-core ARM Cortex-A9 chip called Cevo.
  • »11.01.14 - 00:03
    Profile
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4897 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Throughout this entire development, it seemed like Toshiba got the least useful applications while Sony got what they wanted.
    And the super computer apps often featured AMD Opterons mixed with Cell BE processors.
    As far as the utility of SPEs goes, other parallel solutions like GPU computing might make more sense.

    In any case, my primary point is that we stopped really considering the CellBE as a candidate for a MorphOS based system awhile ago.

    The developers must be tired of repeating 'this will never happen'.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »11.01.14 - 00:16
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10977 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > take it as high end better then PA Semi ... and maybe even Freescale X2000 in some aspects.

    It's neither. Not taking the SPEs into account, the Cell PPE performs worse than the PA6T or the QorIQ P5020.

    > Then next platform could be similar ARM? I believe its advanced concept to SMP/AMP

    I don't understand what you want to say or ask here.
  • »11.01.14 - 00:39
    Profile
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Jupp3
    Posts: 1192 from 2003/2/24
    From: Helsinki, Finland
    Quote:

    I do know, its possible to downgrade flash on some models.
    Be smart and read about hacks.

    I don't talk for MorphOS team, but I certainly wouldn't base a commercial product (that's how the court would see MorphOS, when getting sued by Sony) on a "need-to-be-hacked" Sony product.

    Considering the device also has nvidia, too little ram, is out-of-production (the hackable models, at least), announced dead (PS4 has no backwards compatibility), I'd say we are WAY safer & better with second hand macs.

    Oh, they're better too! (more ram, possibility to use non-nvidia gfx card, more expandable...) and I don't know how well the CPU's compare (especially when comparing only single core, and forgetting SPU) - probably no much difference.

    But surely hardware support should be expanded, right?

    Definitely. I'd say even Sam440 port makes WAY more sense (and is way more safer too), and then there are issues on some PPC Macs too... Better sort out more important things first, right?
  • »11.01.14 - 01:14
    Profile Visit Website
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10977 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > the super computer apps often featured AMD Opterons mixed with Cell BE processors.

    Were there others than the IBM Roadrunner built this way? An interesting (and Opteron-lacking) application has been this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_3_cluster
  • »11.01.14 - 01:28
    Profile
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4897 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Those are some interesting applications, and I think the US navy was using the PS3 too.
    If the Cell's development had continued, it could have proved promising.
    And all those processors now available on the used market with documentation (unlike the XBOX360 CPU)...

    But then we get back to XDR memory, and its just not a practical part to work with.
    But then, we hashed all this over repeatedly in the past.

    I'll take an X5000 please.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »11.01.14 - 01:58
    Profile
  • vox
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    vox
    Posts: 462 from 2003/11/25
    From: Belgrade
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > take it as high end better then PA Semi ... and maybe even Freescale X2000 in some aspects.

    It's neither. Not taking the SPEs into account, the Cell PPE performs worse than the PA6T or the QorIQ P5020.

    > Then next platform could be similar ARM? I believe its advanced concept to SMP/AMP

    I don't understand what you want to say or ask here.


    I mean with all SPEs, point is that you can programme better task in parallells.
    Similar SPE concept could be resused, as I find it quite revolutionary.
    ------------------------------------------
    x1000 user, ASAP Vampire Standalone user, future MOS user
    YT: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdHl_msNWHEVPf229h_gijQ
  • »11.01.14 - 03:56
    Profile
  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 1982 from 2003/2/24
    [ Edited by Kronos 11.01.2014 - 05:04 ]
    --------------------- May the 4th be with you ------------------
    Mother Russia dance of the Zar, don't you know how lucky you are
  • »11.01.14 - 05:02
    Profile
  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 1982 from 2003/2/24
    Most revolutions turn out to be crap ideas.......k
    --------------------- May the 4th be with you ------------------
    Mother Russia dance of the Zar, don't you know how lucky you are
  • »11.01.14 - 05:03
    Profile
  • vox
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    vox
    Posts: 462 from 2003/11/25
    From: Belgrade
    Quote:

    Kronos wrote:
    Most revolutions turn out to be crap ideas.......k


    They eat they own children, don`t get marketed well like 3DO,
    or inventors give up. Nothing out of it with PS3.

    Can MOS use it since its PPC? For now answers is NO.

    But in year or two it will be 100e power station
    that can do more then most of Mac IF programmed well.

    It could be nice gaming platform (PS+PS2+PS games)
    and workstation with Linux and MOS.

    Grrr ... why, oh why Jah, they have put fastest RAM but just 256MB?


    [ Edited by vox 11.01.2014 - 09:14 ]
    ------------------------------------------
    x1000 user, ASAP Vampire Standalone user, future MOS user
    YT: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdHl_msNWHEVPf229h_gijQ
  • »11.01.14 - 09:13
    Profile
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    analogkid
    Posts: 580 from 2004/11/3
    From: near myself
    @vox:

    Maybe because the PS3 wasn't intended as a full-features desktop computer but a gaming station?
  • »11.01.14 - 09:23
    Profile
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Jupp3
    Posts: 1192 from 2003/2/24
    From: Helsinki, Finland
    Quote:

    that can do more then most of Mac IF programmed well.

    I guess you realize that this "programmed well" extends to every single program you would be using? (I assume you mean SPU support)

    Also, f.ex. webkit would have to be "(re)programmed really well" to leak WAY less memory, to be at least "somewhat usable" with only 256MB of ram. Apple can't do it. Google can't do it. Should be absolutely no problem at all for us.

    Also, we would still be restricted to 2D-only due to nvidia.

    Just answer this: WHY should the MorphOS team waste ANY time on this, instead of extending PowerPC mac support?

    And would it be REALLY worth the risk of getting sued by Sony?
  • »11.01.14 - 12:49
    Profile Visit Website
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Yasu
    Posts: 1724 from 2012/3/22
    From: Stockholm, Sweden
    So the only upside with this port would be to get getter games? Is MorphOS famous for it's demanding games? And does anyone know who would do this programming? Or could?

    I agree, this makes next to no sense. I wouldn't get a PS3 for this purpouse.
    AMIGA FORUM - Hela Sveriges Amigatidning!
    AMIGA FORUM - Sweden's Amiga Magazine!

    My MorphOS blog
  • »11.01.14 - 13:33
    Profile Visit Website
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1071 from 2013/5/24
    From: Federacija Bos...
    OMG Bouma lives!
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.9

    2.7GHz DP G5, 4GB RAM, 512MB Radeon X1950 Pro, OSX 10.5.8, 500GB SSHD, MorphOS 3.9
  • »11.01.14 - 18:15
    Profile
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4897 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Actually, I've kind of been talking out my ass, as I get a minor rise out of tweaking Andreas' rigid sensibilities.

    We really explored the avenue as far as it needed to be.

    The processor in the PS3 would be really boon to Morphos, as its ASMP nature would fit in well with our lack of SMP support.
    The SPEs add an immeasurable amount of power to this or any other CPU (literary, its quite hard to quantify).
    I wouldn't have spent time looking at Toshiba's Spur Engine if I didn't think so.

    But the memory requirements of the Cell make it impractical to use.
    I can get a boat load of Cell BE processors now, and the documentation is there to use them, but I can not justify the pricing of XDR memory (even when it is salvaged from a PS3).

    Its a pity IBM did not share its latest advances in SPE design with Toshiba, as the PowerXCell 8i's SPEs are even more remarkable.

    AND, if the PowerXCell 8i (which uses conventional memory) or a related processor was still in production, I would still be pushing for the Cell.

    So our future in PPCs, if there is one, rests with the Qorlq family, just as Paul Gentle predicted several years ago.

    And while its always fun to re-hash old topics, we have beat this one to death already.

    All of you, if you have been paying attention, should be satisfied that the focus for new hardware went right where this forum's train of thought said it ought to.

    I didn't see the OS4 crowd talking about the e5500 core several years ago, but we were.

    And now that we are getting so psyched about an ISA change, its only fair to mention that our OS remains one of the best solutions for PPC platform (in particular for what both could evolve into).

    So...the Cell is dead, but we have already moved to 64bit processors, and the OS4 community is about to adopt the same. We need to focus on the future, not past developments (and software, not hardware).



    [ Edited by Jim 11.01.2014 - 21:11 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »11.01.14 - 18:31
    Profile
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Jupp3
    Posts: 1192 from 2003/2/24
    From: Helsinki, Finland
    Quote:

    Yasu wrote:
    So the only upside with this port would be to get getter games?

    No. Considering this would be software rendering only (due to nvidia) and 256MB ram (at least Wesnoth and MAME can need more), I'd say only Classic Amigas would be worse MorphOS platforms (even if supported by 3.x). I'd say even Efika is better, as you can get 3D acceleration.

    On the other hand, you would get access to "native" PS3 games, but what's the point of MorphOS then? Run PS3 games on PS3, and MorphOS on better hardware! :-D
  • »11.01.14 - 22:08
    Profile Visit Website
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    minator
    Posts: 365 from 2003/3/28
    I used to support this idea but then Sony killed off the OtherOS option...

    However the PS3 has long since been completely hacked, so the Hypervisor is no longer a problem and there are no limitations to accessing all its hardware. It could be supported fully but it would be legally dubious to say the least.

    The PPE is limited by being in-order and having a slow cache. Performance is good for some apps but it's not so good on heavily branchy stuff. OTOH it's apparently very good at ray-tracing which is very branchy. Don't expect G5 performance.

    BTW the PPE core is the very same core that is used in the XBox360 Waternoose processor. The difference is that the XBox360 has 3 of them and they have a souped up version of AltiVec with 128 registers - not entirely unlike the SPEs...

    The "difficult to program (TM)" SPEs are really just souped up AltiVec units with their own memory. If you know about threading, double buffering and AltiVec, you can program an SPE. Most people who have actually programmed them did *not* say they were difficult to program - I spent a year working with people who wanted to sell Cell workstations so I know exactly what people said about it. I suspect the whole "difficult to program" is really just FUD from a certain large semiconductor company who had nothing to complete with it!

    As for the amount of memory in the PS3. It's probably due to price and especially power.
    Cell could access 32GB or something like that - but the XDR chips were relatively low capacity and 32GB would take something like 700 Watts!
  • »11.01.14 - 22:45
    Profile Visit Website
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Jupp3
    Posts: 1192 from 2003/2/24
    From: Helsinki, Finland
    Quote:

    vox wrote:
    But in year or two it will be 100e power station
    that can do more then most of Mac IF programmed well.


    In year or two, you can probably still buy a G5 Mac for less-than-100e, that will run circles around Playstation 3 (would run even more, if there was SMP support)

    Of course, PS3 still might be able to do "certain small things" faster due to SPU (assuming it was supported at all), but as mentioned before, unlike SMP, that would need to be specifically supported by programs.
  • »12.01.14 - 00:23
    Profile Visit Website