It won't happen. Case closed.

>> The only SMP-relevant part in the Cell CPU is the dual-threaded PPE. That's not
>> even two full cores, so there'd be better targets for implementing SMP.

> Dont underestimate PPUs and check which and how great games exist.

I'm well aware of what the PPE/PPU is capable of, and what it's not. The reasons such good PS3 games exist are the GPU and the SPEs/SPUs, not the PPE/PPU.

> PPUs enable one unit for e.g. AI, other for textures and is a small super computer.

You are confusing the SPEs/SPUs with the single (dual-threaded) Power Architecture PPE/PPU.

> CELL is NOT out of production.

...but the OtherOS-capable PS3 models are.

> you say PS3 is nothin

No, I say PS3 is not suitable for MorphOS due to the reasons mentioned.

> try making such affordable board even with 256MB RAM.

I'm not a board designer, so surely won't try making any board, no matter the amount of RAM.

> With its in order execution unit, its not that powerful or that well suited to
> applications outside gaming.

That's not a fair statement to make. There are many more applications than gaming where the Cell concept shines, such as imaging, video processing, network processing, geophysical and climatic simulation etc., in short every task that can be split into several (identical or distinct) sub-tasks whose results don't depend too much on one another.
It should be noted that game makers have said they were struggling to exploit the Cell concept for game programming. I remember I read that the code of even those games exploiting the Cell the best couldn't be parallelized enough to use more than 3 or 4 SPEs.

Quote:

Interesting Andreas,
But if I am not mistaken, you don't code.
The SPEs don't make up for the performance penalty branching creates.
And you yourself quoted the low dmips figures for the PPE.

>>> With its in order execution unit, its not that powerful or that well suited to
>>> applications outside gaming.

>> That's not a fair statement to make. There are many more applications than gaming
>> where the Cell concept shines, such as imaging, video processing, network processing,
>> geophysical and climatic simulation etc. [...]. It should be noted that game makers
>> have said they were struggling to exploit the Cell concept for game programming.

> if I am not mistaken, you don't code.

I don't think any of my statements require me to be a coder to make them. The fields of applications for the Cell result from its hardware architecture, which is well documented. And regarding game programming for the Cell I didn't give my personal opinion but recited statements I read from actual game coders.

> The SPEs don't make up for the performance penalty branching creates.

With applications where there's no heavy branching taking place, like the ones I listed for you, the Cell's SPEs don't have to make up for it. On the contrary, the SPEs can display their full power with those. Modern gaming on the other hand does use a good amount of branching so it's effortful to use the Cell to capacity with game code (at least that's what actual game developers said about it).

> you yourself quoted the low dmips figures for the PPE.

The PPE has got nothing to do with the applications I listed for the SPEs. With those applications, the PPE merely distributes the actual work to the SPEs and collects the results upon its completion. And the PPE alone is even less suited for modern gaming.

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That is one area where our opinions differ.
It seems quite well suited to gaming.

@ Jim

Andreas wrote "modern gaming", not just "gaming".

Even if you compare the PPE to the CPU found in Microsoft's old and oudated XBOX 360, it seems rather slow. Nevermind how much faster the current generation of consoles are.

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Hey, why not 1,2,3 ... 4 can be reflashed ... and 4 make a cut down version and use Vmem ... its a great platform and if it can run modern games, why not MOS?

Hypervisor is gogo, and Cell is PPC32 compatibile.

But OK, its hard work just for me, so no go.

Anyway, beside PS3 Cell is used only in supercomputers.
If it had Radeon and more RAM it would be a programmers wet dream
and users cheapest fun.

> GFX and CPU are great. [...] you get BlueRay, nice GFX, great great CPU

If you say so...

No, IBM sais so

> with many SPUs ...

MorphOS would have to implement support for them first. I doubt this would be worthwile given that such code wouldn't be usable on any other current or future MorphOS platform.

I know, there are special SDKs to target Cell, but ... that would be step closer
to something others dont have. I havent seen any other PPU CPU.


> Maybe someone could somewhat add some RAM to the board?

Such hacking would be no basis for undertaking a MorphOS port.

And using Apples is? Cmon, Amiga stylee!

> does MOS have virtual memory?

In case you mean memory paging/swapping, the answer is no.

Oh, one bad feature OS4 has. Run dem out!

EDIT: Had to fix quote tags. Yet again...

[ Edited by ASiegel 10.01.2014 - 18:56 ]

Quote:

I have a hacked PS3 and actively follow whats going on. I know every single trick to hack PS3.

Quote:

You are my man, I ll let you know once I get one about end of this year,

What do you recommend YDL 6.x or Linux Mint 11?

>> And the PPE alone is even less suited for modern gaming.

> That is one area where our opinions differ.

Huh? You really think that the PPE alone is not less suited to modern gaming than PPE+SPEs? Why do PS3 games make use of the SPEs then? Wouldn't it be easier to just use the PPE and ignore the hard-to-program SPEs if the result can be the same or even better without them?

> It seems quite well suited to gaming.

The PPE is a dual-threaded in-order 64-bit Power Architecture core with an ordinary AltiVec/VMX unit. I don't see anything in it that makes it particularly suited to gaming. There's a reason why Sony wanted to have it accompanied by the SPEs and also why PS3 games use those SPEs.

Quote:

I recommend 3tb harddrive and a few hundred games :)

>> Nvidia -> no go
>> Hypervisor -> no go
>> Cell != SMP -> no go

> Hey, why not

The Nvidia and hypervisor restrictions you were already explained. Regarding SMP, as I said the dual-threaded PPE can be used with SMP but is probably not the best example to show its merits. Kronos probably refers to the fact that the Cell CPU as a whole (PPE+SPEs) is an asymmetric design, so the SPEs can't be used with SMP.

>> Otter OS disabled on most units -> no go

> can be reflashed

To quote myself: Only on models the required firmware version was originally released for, which means pre-slim models.

> Hypervisor is gogo

The hypervisor itself does not prevent MorphOS from running, but it prevents full access to the RSX GPU by OtherOS (as already explained to you).

> beside PS3 Cell is used only in supercomputers.

It's also used in server blades, TV sets, video transcoding cards and probably several other things.

> If it had Radeon and more RAM it would be a programmers wet dream and users cheapest fun.

No, unless it also had no prevention of full GPU access by hypervisor and was still in production with OtherOS capability.

Quote:

And it ought to be noted that Microsoft, when the decided to 'borrow' from the design, did not bother with the SPEs and instead multiplied the PPE units.

Further, what makes you think most programs DO use the SPEs?

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Blade servers yes, the Toshiba SPE stand alone apps you seem to be referring to here did not make it to market.

>>> GFX and CPU are great. [...] you get BlueRay, nice GFX, great great CPU

>> If you say so...

> No, IBM sais so

The manufacturer of the CPU himself saying so is all the more reason to be sceptical about it. Besides (all explained to you already), the GPU may be great and nice but can't be accessed by OtherOS fully due to hypervisor, and Blu-ray support needs UDF 2.50+.

>>> with many SPUs

>> MorphOS would have to implement support for them first. I doubt this would be worthwile
>> given that such code wouldn't be usable on any other current or future MorphOS platform.

> that would be step closer to something others dont have. I havent seen any other PPU CPU.

We've been talking about the SPUs at this point, not about the PPU. Linux and BSD on PS3 can make use of them, so others do have it on the same hardware. And the fact that no other current or future MorphOS platform does/will have them is something I wouldn't regard as an advantage. You'd have to scrap all code written for them when moving to another CPU without SPUs.

>>> Maybe someone could somewhat add some RAM to the board?

>> Such hacking would be no basis for undertaking a MorphOS port.

> And using Apples is?

Yes, because no user needs to treat his PPC Mac with a soldering iron just to use MorphOS on it. It runs as is. Hardest thing is changing the graphics card which is something almost everybody should be able to do, which in turn "somewhat add some RAM to the board" is not with no slots available. (And that's not taking into account the low probability that the PS3 would even accept or recognize more RAM or the bad availability of XDR RAM.)

>>>> And the PPE alone is even less suited for modern gaming.

>>> That is one area where our opinions differ.

>> You really think that the PPE alone is not less suited to modern gaming than
>> PPE+SPEs? Why do PS3 games make use of the SPEs then? Wouldn't it be
>> easier to just use the PPE and ignore the hard-to-program SPEs if the result
>> can be the same or even better without them?
>> The PPE is a dual-threaded in-order 64-bit Power Architecture core with an
>> ordinary AltiVec/VMX unit. I don't see anything in it that makes it particularly
>> suited to gaming. There's a reason why Sony wanted to have it accompanied
>> by the SPEs and also why PS3 games use those SPEs.

> it ought to be noted that Microsoft, when the decided to 'borrow' from the design,
> did not bother with the SPEs and instead multiplied the PPE units.

Yes, according to game coders, three symmetric PPEs with gaming-optimized AltiVec/VMX128 are easier to program games for than one PPE with ordinary AltiVec/VMX plus several asymmetric SPEs. But, and this is where I want to stress my point above, this doesn't change that one PPE plus several SPEs offer way more aggregated performance for gaming than just one PPE.

> what makes you think most programs DO use the SPEs?

I already answered this question of yours more than 3 years ago there:

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=6993&start=68

Your answer to my explanation back then was: "Probably true".

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Thanks.

Well take it as high end better then PA Semi ... and maybe even Freescale X2000 in some aspects. Then next platform could be similar ARM?

I believe its advanced concept to SMP/AMP, even I do not code.

Other things ... well if Linux can do it, we can port from them

>> It's also used in [...] TV sets, video transcoding cards [...]

> the Toshiba SPE stand alone apps you seem to be referring to here did not make it to market.

I don't know what "Toshiba SPE stand alone apps" (SpursEngine?) *you* are referring to here, but I'm referring to the Toshiba REGZA series of TV sets incorporating full Cell B.E. chips:

http://www.google.com/search?q=site:toshiba.co.jp+regza+%22cell+broadband%22
http://medical.toshiba.com/about/pioneering-technology/ (see "2009")

Quote:

Really? They actually offer to let me buy a Spurs engine development board.
That idea went no where (Spurs).

And at the price range the Regia lines serves, there won't be many of these sold.
They are not a main line consumer item.

IBM and its partners promised a range of applications and few materialized.

Although the Cell's design is well suited to multimedia applications.

Then again, its reliance on XDR ram makes it quite impractical.

And the later derivatives that would have used more conventional memory are eol'd.

The Cell would appear to be a dead end.

> I'm referring to the Toshiba REGZA series of TV sets incorporating full Cell B.E. chips

> Really?

Yes, I'm really referring to them and they really incorporate full Cell B.E. chips and they really came to market.

> They actually offer to let me buy a Spurs engine development board.

For developing "SPE stand alone apps"? I'm not sure it can even exist "stand alone" as the SPEs require a general purpose core or CPU for control and distribution purposes, like the PPE in the Cell or the x86 CPU in Toshiba's Qosmio series of laptops.

> That idea went no where (Spurs).

At least there were actual products using the SpursEngine:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpursEngine#Commercialization

We were talking about some of them there:

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7383&forum=11&start=3
https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7383&forum=11&start=17

> at the price range the Regia lines serves, there won't be many of these sold.
> They are not a main line consumer item.

This may be. The point I was attempting to make is that the Cell has not only been used in the PS3 and in supercomputers (like was claimed in this thread) but in other devices as well.
Btw, in 2011 Toshiba has switched the REGZA line from Cell to a hexa-core ARM Cortex-A9 chip called Cevo.

Throughout this entire development, it seemed like Toshiba got the least useful applications while Sony got what they wanted.
And the super computer apps often featured AMD Opterons mixed with Cell BE processors.
As far as the utility of SPEs goes, other parallel solutions like GPU computing might make more sense.

In any case, my primary point is that we stopped really considering the CellBE as a candidate for a MorphOS based system awhile ago.

The developers must be tired of repeating 'this will never happen'.

> take it as high end better then PA Semi ... and maybe even Freescale X2000 in some aspects.

It's neither. Not taking the SPEs into account, the Cell PPE performs worse than the PA6T or the QorIQ P5020.

> Then next platform could be similar ARM? I believe its advanced concept to SMP/AMP

I don't understand what you want to say or ask here.

Quote:
I don't talk for MorphOS team, but I certainly wouldn't base a commercial product (that's how the court would see MorphOS, when getting sued by Sony) on a "need-to-be-hacked" Sony product.

Considering the device also has nvidia, too little ram, is out-of-production (the hackable models, at least), announced dead (PS4 has no backwards compatibility), I'd say we are WAY safer & better with second hand macs.

Oh, they're better too! (more ram, possibility to use non-nvidia gfx card, more expandable...) and I don't know how well the CPU's compare (especially when comparing only single core, and forgetting SPU) - probably no much difference.

But surely hardware support should be expanded, right?

Definitely. I'd say even Sam440 port makes WAY more sense (and is way more safer too), and then there are issues on some PPC Macs too... Better sort out more important things first, right?