Any plans to support 16bit screen modes for G5's?
  • MorphOS Developer
    jacadcaps
    Posts: 2968 from 2003/3/5
    From: Canada
    Quote:

    geit wrote:
    You cannot say you are using just 2D. Even enhanced layers is 3D, thats why the early used name containing 3D was changed into "enhanced layers".



    Actually, the new layers.library was codenamed 3dlayers, because one of its compositing engines used tinygl.library. That was later dropped since the accelerated graphics calls in CGX were more convenient.
  • »04.07.13 - 11:27
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  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 2232 from 2003/2/24
    @Miky060

    Maybe I'm missing something here .....

    - you did have working G4 HW
    - you bought a G5 in advance of upcoming 3.2 release
    - you find out that a nonstandard GFX-card does not work 100% (all supported G5 either had an 9600,9650 or NVidia as default GFX)
    - whollotta complaining.

    I have no idea what the difference is between the 9600 and 9800, but my G5 with 9600 is surely useable.
  • »04.07.13 - 13:38
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Doffo
    Posts: 507 from 2010/10/14
    From: Nevada
    My flashed Radeon 9800 pro works like a champ... Sure you got a few games that will just crap or go slow, but overall experience for OWB or MPlayer its been great.
    -=-=-=-
    YUUUP!
  • »04.07.13 - 13:55
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  • Moderator
    Miky060
    Posts: 694 from 2003/2/24
    From: ITALY
    Crumb,
    Quote:

    Did you send them logs to try to help to identify the problem? Since both G5&R300 support is new I think finding bugs is normal, hopefully it will improve with next release.


    How can I get a log if my system is totally unusable? I just insert MorpohOS 3.2 CD and wait: the system loads and becomes immediately almost freezed. Even to move the mouse pointer few pixels it takes servel MINUTES!!
    But me and others ALREADY exposed and explained all this SEVERAL TIMES. How is possible that many person here feel to attack me when they still have not understood the gravity of the issue!?



    geit,
    Quote:

    The desktop may look 2D, but it uses 3D functionallity. Ask people who used the PowerBook without 3D, where some simple alpha rendering made their system slow like hell, because all operations where done in software.


    I know what you mean. Me too has tryed this in the past on the Powerbook, but it's totally different world. The powerbook was slow lyke hell, but still usable, the G5 is totally unusable. It's a much much worse situation.



    Kronos,
    Quote:


    Maybe I'm missing something here .....

    - you did have working G4 HW
    - you bought a G5 in advance of upcoming 3.2 release
    - you find out that a nonstandard GFX-card does not work 100% (all supported G5 either had an 9600,9650 or NVidia as default GFX)
    - whollotta complaining.

    I have no idea what the difference is between the 9600 and 9800, but my G5 with 9600 is surely useable.


    Yeah, you're missing the point. I sold the G4 and bought a G5 few days before the 3.2 release. I did not buy a 9800 because I wanted a better GFX, I just found it in the system I bought! Same high end config came with with a OEM GENUINE MAC VERSION 9800XT Board inside! It's not a personal experiment. If I had another working GFX Board I would use it in the meanwhile this problem is fixed. I have just some 9000Pro here but it seems they can't be fitted inside G5.



    pampers,
    Quote:

    if your card is not working propely, maybe instead of typing and typing and typing on forum, complaining how bad it is, you should ask some MorphOS developer if they are interested in borrowing your card for developement and testing purposes?


    First: it's not only my card that has problems.
    Second: if morphos developers have still not a problematic 9800 in their hands this is a VERY SERIOUS PROBLEM. Why? Because it means they are still not actually working on the problem!!! So if it is the case they should have told to persons like me having issue with 9800 "hey guys, until we can have a 9800 Board in our hands the fixing work will neither start!"

    The sesantion I have is that months that go ahead are seen like few hours from the dev team. We have surelly a different vision of the time and the waste of it..

    [ Edited by Miky060 04.07.2013 - 17:58 ]

    PegasosII "Elite" Machine --> PowerMac MDD "popular" Machine --> MacMini 1.5 "still more popular" Machine
  • »04.07.13 - 15:53
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1110 from 2013/5/24
    From: Nederland
    You bought an as yet unsupported machine before it was announced it would be supported and this is the dev teams fault how?

    If I was going to be cruel I'd say that as you haven't even bought MOS3.2 for your G5 you have no right to complain as you aren't a paying customer and it's your own fault you have no working machine now as you prematurely sold your G4. The MorphOS website clearly states "We strongly urge you to not buy or otherwise finance any hardware for the purpose of running MorphOS until you have read an announcement on this website that clearly states MorphOS will support it." http://www.morphos-team.net/faq

    Anyway, to try and help you, have you tried booting from USB rather than CD as quite a few people have had weird problems when installing from CD on a G5. It's a long shot but it could be related.
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.15

    2.7GHz DP G5, 4GB RAM, 512MB Radeon X1950 Pro, 500GB SSHD, MorphOS 3.9
  • »04.07.13 - 16:14
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1110 from 2013/5/24
    From: Nederland
    My G5 came with one of these cards inside and it works a treat. Perhaps you could sell your 9800 and buy one of these instead?

    http://www.ebay.it/itm/Apple-Power-Mac-G5-ATI-Radeon-9650-256MB-for-30-Cinema-Display-Graphics-Card-/230953494191?pt=UK_Computing_Computer_Components_Graphics_Video_TV_Cards_TW&hash=item35c5e6a6af
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.15

    2.7GHz DP G5, 4GB RAM, 512MB Radeon X1950 Pro, 500GB SSHD, MorphOS 3.9
  • »04.07.13 - 16:17
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > You bought an as yet unsupported machine before it was announced it would be
    > supported [...]? [...] The MorphOS website clearly states "We strongly urge you to
    > not buy or otherwise finance any hardware for the purpose of running MorphOS
    > until you have read an announcement on this website that clearly states MorphOS
    > will support it." http://www.morphos-team.net/faq

    He said he "bought a G5 few days before the 3.2 release", so I think it was already announced as being supported when he bought it. But what's the point of this anyway? How does it matter for his current problem whether he bought his supported machine before or after it was announced as being supported, or before or after the support was actually released? I fail to get this reasoning in the context of the reported problem.
  • »04.07.13 - 16:46
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2793 from 2006/3/21
    From: Northern Calif...
    @Miky060,

    I am sorry that you can't use your G5 PowerMac yet to run MorphOS3.2. I am also sorry that you are being called a "bitchy complainer" by one or more members here, because that is not right.

    I don't completely agree with your point of view, and belief that the R300 driver(s) have been worked on for years, or that they should be perfect in their first release. If the MorphOS Dev. Team waited for each part of their work to be perfect before they released it, we would still be waiting for MorphOS2.0, or 2.4 to come out.

    Since at least one member here has reported that their Radeon 9800 is working properly with MorphOS3.2, have you considered that there might be a problem with just your Radeon 9800 video card? Some kind of fault that maybe does not show up while running MacOSX (are you even trying to run MacOSX to verify that your system is working properly)? You are probably right, that the fault lies in the MorphOS3.2 R300 driver and it is not your specific video card, but I am just trying to rule out all possibilities for the source of your problem.

    Since your system is in such an unusable state for running MorphOS3.2, it makes it even harder for you to help the developers pin down exactly what the problem is, so they can attempt to fix it. I have not seen any of the MorphOS Dev. Team members speak up in this thread, or any other thread, to say that they are aware of the problem and have been able to reproduce it with their own G5 w/9800 video card system, so that they can work on fixing the problem. By this I mean your problem of having a completely unusable system where the cursor will not move and you cannot even get any debug information out of your system.

    I understand your frustration, but what I don't understand is why you are so negative about finding a replacement video card as a temporary solution to your problem. If it is because you cannot afford to buy yourself a Radeon 9600, or 9650 video card, contact me via PMail and I will try to help you find and purchase a working video card, so you can at least begin enjoying the use of your G5 PowerMac running MorphOS3.2, until a version of MorphOS3.x which supports your Radeon 9800 can be completed and released.

    As at least one other member here has pointed out, the MorphOS Dev. Team members have lives outside of coding for MorphOS (which I think most of them do for free, and do not receive any of the license fees for MorphOS registrations), and like someone also said, only one or two of the MorphOS Dev. Team members actually work on the video card drivers, so there is no telling how long it will take before your particular video card is supported (even if your card has zero faults in it, that are preventing it from working partially now with the current R300 driver). That is just the facts of reality with the small number of programmers available to work on any Amiga related programming projects in the current day.

    [ Edited by amigadave 04.07.2013 - 10:04 ]
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »04.07.13 - 17:01
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1110 from 2013/5/24
    From: Nederland
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > You bought an as yet unsupported machine before it was announced it would be
    > supported [...]? [...] The MorphOS website clearly states "We strongly urge you to
    > not buy or otherwise finance any hardware for the purpose of running MorphOS
    > until you have read an announcement on this website that clearly states MorphOS
    > will support it." http://www.morphos-team.net/faq

    He said he "bought a G5 few days before the 3.2 release", so I think it was already announced as being supported when he bought it. But what's the point of this anyway? How does it matter for his current problem whether he bought his supported machine before or after it was announced as being supported, or before or after the support was actually released? I fail to get this reasoning in the context of the reported problem.


    I was just playing Devil's Advocate. The reasoning is simple, if one buys hardware that isn't listed on morphos-team.net as being officially supported then it's your own fault if it doesn't work.

    Did morphos-team.net really state G5's with 9800XT are supported before 3.2 was even released? I don't remember it saying so but I've been known to be wrong before. :)

    Anyway, none of this helps Miky. I'd be interested to know if his problem is related to the already reported problems people have had when booting from CD on G5's with certain optical drives.
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.15

    2.7GHz DP G5, 4GB RAM, 512MB Radeon X1950 Pro, 500GB SSHD, MorphOS 3.9
  • »04.07.13 - 17:01
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > The reasoning is simple, if one buys hardware that isn't listed on morphos-team.net
    > as being officially supported then it's your own fault if it doesn't work.

    He has a supported PowerMac7,3 and a Radeon 9800(XT) graphics card, which is listed as being supported (unless "9800" doesn't include "Pro" or "XT" variants that is, but then the 9650 isn't even listed* albeit reported as working and being the stock graphics card of some PowerMac7,3 models). And I still don't understand how it matters at which point in time he bought the hardware. Would it be less his own fault if he had bought unsupported hardware *after* release?

    > Did morphos-team.net really state G5's with 9800XT are supported before 3.2
    > was even released?

    Both PowerMac7,3 (at least some models thereof) and R300-based cards were stated to be supported before the release. But again, "before" or "after" doesn't matter at all in the context of the problem at hand.


    * Radeon 9650 has been listed as supported meanwhile.

    [ Edited by Andreas_Wolf 08.10.2013 - 23:07 ]
  • »04.07.13 - 17:27
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1110 from 2013/5/24
    From: Nederland
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > The reasoning is simple, if one buys hardware that isn't listed on morphos-team.net
    > as being officially supported then it's your own fault if it doesn't work.

    He has a supported PowerMac7,3 and a Radeon 9800(XT) graphics card, which is listed as being supported (unless "9800" doesn't include "Pro" or "XT" variants that is, but then the 9650 isn't even listed albeit reported as working and being the stock graphics card of some PowerMac7,3 models). And I still don't understand how it matters at which point in time he bought the hardware. Would it be less his own fault if he had bought unsupported hardware *after* release?



    Correct, It wouldn't be his fault at all.

    Quote:

    > Did morphos-team.net really state G5's with 9800XT are supported before 3.2
    > was even released?

    Both PowerMac7,3 (at least some models thereof) and R300-based cards were stated to be supported before the release. But again, "before" or "after" doesn't matter at all in the context of the problem at hand.


    I'll take it that means no.
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.15

    2.7GHz DP G5, 4GB RAM, 512MB Radeon X1950 Pro, 500GB SSHD, MorphOS 3.9
  • »04.07.13 - 17:45
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1110 from 2013/5/24
    From: Nederland
    @Miky

    If you boot without startup-sequence from the bootmenu does the mouse pointer still move slowly etc?
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.15

    2.7GHz DP G5, 4GB RAM, 512MB Radeon X1950 Pro, 500GB SSHD, MorphOS 3.9
  • »04.07.13 - 17:46
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  • Moderator
    Miky060
    Posts: 694 from 2003/2/24
    From: ITALY
    Andreas_Wolf,
    Quote:

    He has a supported PowerMac7,3 and a Radeon 9800(XT) graphics card, which is listed as being supported (unless "9800" doesn't include "Pro" or "XT" variants that is, but then the 9650 isn't even listed albeit reported as working and being the stock graphics card of some PowerMac7,3 models). And I still don't understand how it matters at which point in time he bought the hardware. Would it be less his own fault if he had bought unsupported hardware *after* release?


    This is the point.
    Apart of some useless things said here from not mos team members, can we just focus on the point and have a clear answer from morphos developer?: Is the problem with some 9800 boards a known issue and has some of the developers a problematic 9800 in his hands on which he is working to fix the problem? Yes or not?

    It's a simple question and I don't intend to kill nobody, I just want to know if there is a concrete work to solve the problem with a board that is declared as officially supported or not.

    P.S. Obviously my system perfectly works under Mac OS and I am not a morphos newbie that discovered this OS just a couple of years ago..

    PegasosII "Elite" Machine --> PowerMac MDD "popular" Machine --> MacMini 1.5 "still more popular" Machine
  • »04.07.13 - 19:40
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  • Moderator
    Miky060
    Posts: 694 from 2003/2/24
    From: ITALY
    amigadave,
    Quote:

    I understand your frustration, but what I don't understand is why you are so negative about finding a replacement video card as a temporary solution to your problem. If it is because you cannot afford to buy yourself a Radeon 9600, or 9650 video card, contact me via PMail and I will try to help you find and purchase a working video card, so you can at least begin enjoying the use of your G5 PowerMac running MorphOS3.2, until a version of MorphOS3.x which supports your Radeon 9800 can be completed and released.


    Thanks for your support but I am a bit demotivated to change and try new hardware. As many of you remember I am an old MorphOS user (I have been also the italian distributor of Pegasos in Italy in the first MorphOS era) so a lot of MorphOS machines have been in my hands, from Pegasos I to the G5 (considering PegasosII, Powermac G4, mac minis, powerbooks...) so this machine (the G5) was intended to be my definitive and last morphos computer with which I wanted to find peace of senses. I have no more spare time and desire to try, change, mod, upgrade configs and hardware. I think I'll just conitnue to have my system parked and wait until the issue will be fixed and I'll be able to use MorphOS again. In the mean while I just wanted to understand is the Dev Team was concretely working on the problem or not. I did not believe to be pubblically flogged for this.

    Now I remember why I stopped to ask and to write on this forum.

    [ Edited by Miky060 04.07.2013 - 21:50 ]

    PegasosII "Elite" Machine --> PowerMac MDD "popular" Machine --> MacMini 1.5 "still more popular" Machine
  • »04.07.13 - 19:48
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1110 from 2013/5/24
    From: Nederland
    @Miky

    Have you tried booting from USB yet?
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.15

    2.7GHz DP G5, 4GB RAM, 512MB Radeon X1950 Pro, 500GB SSHD, MorphOS 3.9
  • »04.07.13 - 19:56
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> I still don't understand how it matters at which point in time he bought the
    >> hardware. Would it be less his own fault if he had bought unsupported
    >> hardware *after* release?

    > Correct, It wouldn't be his fault at all.

    How so? I'm baffled. If I buy an Intel Mac (i.e. unsupported hardware) tomorrow (i.e. after release) to run MorphOS 3.2 it wouldn't be my fault at all that it doesn't work?

    >>> Did morphos-team.net really state G5's with 9800XT are supported before
    >>> 3.2 was even released?

    >> Both PowerMac7,3 (at least some models thereof) and R300-based cards were
    >> stated to be supported before the release.

    > I'll take it that means no.

    He has a PowerMac7,3 with an R300-based graphics card, both of which were said to be supported before the release. Take this as you will.
  • »04.07.13 - 20:49
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Crumb
    Posts: 730 from 2003/2/24
    From: aGaS & CUAZ Al...
    Quote:

    Miky060 wrote:
    Crumb,
    Quote:

    Did you send them logs to try to help to identify the problem? Since both G5&R300 support is new I think finding bugs is normal, hopefully it will improve with next release.


    How can I get a log if my system is totally unusable? I just insert MorpohOS 3.2 CD and wait: the system loads and becomes immediately almost freezed. Even to move the mouse pointer few pixels it takes servel MINUTES!!



    perhaps it's possible to pass a parameter to disable layers3d, IIRC it was useful with some efika releases.
    2d=use2dlayers=no3dlayers/S

    BTW, I think it's possible to send debug info through firewire cable to other MorphOS machine.

    Quote:

    But me and others ALREADY exposed and explained all this SEVERAL TIMES. How is possible that many person here feel to attack me when they still have not understood the gravity of the issue!?


    I think you are over reacting, I was trying to help.

    Keep in mind your machine didn't run MorphOS before, if it still doesn't (at least correctly) you haven't lost anything. Did you register at all? I don't think so. It's not like you were running MorphOS happily on your machine and the update caused it to suddenly stop working. It should be fixed ASAP, but I don't think it's such a big problem, your temper tantrum is out of place.
  • »04.07.13 - 21:18
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  • MorphOS Developer
    Henes
    Posts: 507 from 2003/6/14
    @Miky060

    Please read, again, post #4 written more than 2 days ago. There can't be more as of now.
  • »04.07.13 - 22:45
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  • Moderator
    Miky060
    Posts: 694 from 2003/2/24
    From: ITALY
    Henes that post, like others from mos developers, just means that in a future there will be a fix. This can mean everything or nothing.
    Please, can I know if someone of you in this moment has in his hands a defective board on which he is working to solve the problem?

    PegasosII "Elite" Machine --> PowerMac MDD "popular" Machine --> MacMini 1.5 "still more popular" Machine
  • »05.07.13 - 07:02
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  • MorphOS Developer
    cyfm
    Posts: 537 from 2003/4/11
    From: Germany
    No, nobody is working on it NOW. If that is what you want to know, here you are ...
    Everything else has been said in post #4
  • »05.07.13 - 07:28
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  • MorphOS Developer
    jacadcaps
    Posts: 2968 from 2003/3/5
    From: Canada
    Miky060, seriously, we're not holding a release just to see you make more and more angry posts here. At the moment, we are aware of the problem, but there isn't a patch we could release. There are several variations of R300 based Mac Radeons, meaning we have to find them, test them and solve problems that may appear with these specific cards. These things take time and if due to circumstances outside of our control they take more than we'd like to - too bad.
  • »05.07.13 - 07:52
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  • Moderator
    Miky060
    Posts: 694 from 2003/2/24
    From: ITALY
    pega-1,
    Quote:

    No, nobody is working on it NOW. If that is what you want to know, here you are ...


    So it has told me to have patience and wait next release because remembering periodically my problem after a while would not help, I have been publicly flogged for all the thread, I have been accused to bitching and acting like a baby, I had to read useless argumentation like me buying the system before of after the release of MOS3.2 that have stretched this thread meaningless to just arrive to the point that still no fixing work has been not even started on a problematic 9800 Board.

    Nice.

    Is there a developer here interested in borrowing my card for testing purposes so that the work for which I have to have patience CAN FINALLY START?

    [ Edited by Miky060 05.07.2013 - 19:22 ]

    PegasosII "Elite" Machine --> PowerMac MDD "popular" Machine --> MacMini 1.5 "still more popular" Machine
  • »05.07.13 - 17:00
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  • Moderator
    Miky060
    Posts: 694 from 2003/2/24
    From: ITALY
    Double post



    [ Edited by Miky060 05.07.2013 - 19:21 ]

    PegasosII "Elite" Machine --> PowerMac MDD "popular" Machine --> MacMini 1.5 "still more popular" Machine
  • »05.07.13 - 17:20
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  • Moderator
    Miky060
    Posts: 694 from 2003/2/24
    From: ITALY
    Tell me who wants my board and I'll ship to him. I do not need it at the moment.

    [ Edited by Miky060 05.07.2013 - 19:26 ]

    PegasosII "Elite" Machine --> PowerMac MDD "popular" Machine --> MacMini 1.5 "still more popular" Machine
  • »05.07.13 - 17:25
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  • Just looking around
    Posts: 8 from 2013/7/24
    Just wanted to add that I have an G5 with an ATI 9800 card in it (I think it is the pro version) and 2 out of 3 times the system is unusable due to unresponsiveness of the system (high CPU load). The butterfly splashscreen already takes a while to get shown, so the problem is already present somewhere during the very early stages of booting.

    BUT:

    1 out of 3 times the system just perfoms wonderfully fast and snappy. So at least I can work with it until 3.3 hopefully makes it 100% working. So for now I have to reset the system a couple of times before it boots correctly into a fast OS.
  • »24.07.13 - 17:49
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