I am about to buy a powerbook.

I see that there are two models in the 17" 1.67ghz category.
One is the DLSD (dual layer super drive) model.
Any problems using the DLSD model? Powerbook 5,9?
Video card is radeon 9700.
Is this the R300? Will it work?

They both work with MorphOS, but for now there is no 3D support for any R300 GPU so you'll have to wait new graphics drivers (probably MorphOS 3.2) to have full 3D support.

I'm using a Powerbook 5,8 (DLSD like the 5,9 model but with 15" screen) with MorphOS and it's a very nice piece of hardware.

So I will have 2D, right?
I can't say I'd miss playing any 3D games.
Which video cards are R200?

> So I will have 2D, right?

Right. Keep in mind that also some 2D effects like transparency are done using the 3D part of the GPU, so on machines with R300 GPU they have to be calculated by the CPU and thus slowly for now.

> Which video cards are R200?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radeon_R200#Implementations
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_ATI_Graphics_Processing_Units#Radeon_R200_.288xxx.2C_9xxx.29_series

Andreas_Wolf,
Quote:

Not that slow on a reasonably fast machine. Even some 3D effects done via the CPU can be tolerably fast. If you're not playing games (and I don't) then it really isn't that important.

>> Keep in mind that also some 2D effects like transparency are done
>> using the 3D part of the GPU, so on machines with R300 GPU they have
>> to be calculated by the CPU and thus slowly for now.

> Not that slow on a reasonably fast machine.

You may want to read this thread then:

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=8845&forum=9

Andreas_Wolf,
Quote:

Interesting, I don't really experience that.
However, the card I'm using is faster then the built-in GPU of a Poerbook, so perhaps I ought to amend my opinion to "you may not notice or find it particularly objectionable".
And, in any case, 3D drivers should be completed relatively quickly.

> I don't really experience that. However, the card I'm using is
> faster then the built-in GPU of a Poerbook

How does the GPU performance matter for an effect that is calculated solely by the CPU?

Andreas_Wolf,
Quote:

Not for the calculation, but its still rendered by the GPU (via 2D instructions).
There is a significant speed difference there betyween a portable 9700 and a desktop 9800XT.
I'm fairly certain that could be measured in side by side comparisons.

> its still rendered by the GPU (via 2D instructions). There is a significant
> speed difference there betyween a portable 9700 and a desktop 9800XT.
> I'm fairly certain that could be measured in side by side comparisons.

I doubt this has any significant bearing on the issue described in that other thread. The hard part is the calculation of the colour value of each pixel many times a second, which is done by the CPU. Once all these values have been calculated for the relevant screen area, sending those values to the GPU and have them displayed in the right spots accordingly shouldn't make any significant difference between the R360 and the RV360. That's my layman understanding at least.
Btw, it's funny that I only now realize that the Mobility Radeon 9700 has the same GPU as the "desktop" 9600XT (RV360), not as the "desktop" 9700 (R300). Confusing.

Andreas_Wolf,
Quote:

I wasn't aware of that either, although I'd be willing to bet its clocked slower.

> I'd be willing to bet its clocked slower.

Yes, according to the Wikipedia page linked to above, the RV360 is clocked at 450 MHz in the Mobility 9700 and between 500 and 525 MHz in the 9600XT.
For clarification on the topic of transparency: Have I understood you right that you tried the same thing (i.e. running Lucy) on your R360 as Fraggle did on his RV360 in that other thread, but can't confirm his bad experience reported there?

I can confirm that on my 9800XT (MDD) everything is much smoother (even moving/resizing windows) than on the 9700Mobility (Powerbook) even if both still have not complete driver support and certain effect are calculated by the CPU.

Wow, this topic got a lot of attention.


Thanks for all the info.
I am going with a 17" Powerbook 5,9 with 1680x1050 and the SuperDrive.
ATI Radeon 9700

A friend in the club has gotten a quick silver and wants to get into morph os so it is a good time to get the powerbook as my quick silver went belly up.

P.S. I will be getting my first license also.

> I can confirm that on my 9800XT (MDD) everything is much smoother [...] than on
> the 9700Mobility (Powerbook) even if [...] certain effect are calculated by the CPU.

Does this assessment include intense use of the transparency effect, like caused by running Lucy for instance?

Miky060,
Quote:
I guess it's good to point out that NONE of the supported PowerBook models have 3D support currently, so you cannot avoid this issue by picking a different PowerBook model.

Of course 3D works on various other PPC mac systems.

One other "current PowerBook restriction" worth mentioning is, that MorphOS currently supports only the native resolution of the screen. Of course that's the one that should be prefered, but you might get into some problems with some games etc. External monitor won't work yet either, but at least for me, the integrated display was the main point

According to wiki some of the powerbooks have the older r200 video so they should work fine with 3D.
Yes/No?

> According to wiki some of the powerbooks have the older r200 video

Yes, those are the two latest ones of the four Titanium revisions.

http://support.apple.com/kb/SP62
http://support.apple.com/kb/SP75

> so they should work fine with 3D. Yes/No?

Yes, 3D support surely wouldn't be the problem with them. But there's more to supporting a complete system than just having drivers for its GPU ;-)
Btw, support for the remaining Aluminum revisions (except the initial one) with R300 series GPU has been said to come maybe in MorphOS 3.2:

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=8709&forum=3&start=7

Andreas_Wolf,
Quote:


No use of Lucy anymore (I'll use it again when new graphic drawers will be finally out). I just use a custom GUI/Skin/MUI config, the same you can find in the Ultimate Pack (I created it..) but I have the same config on both MDD (9800XT 256MB) and PowerBook 5,8 (Mobility 9700 128MB). The HD on the Powerbook is almost a complete mirror copy of the one on the MDD.

Maybe the only transparent/alpha effetcs are used by the system menu and the Polynet dock, but i repeat, the Powerbook installation is a mirror copy of the one present in the MDD HD and there is an huge difference in speed/smoothness.

> No use of Lucy anymore (I'll use it again when new graphic drawers will be
> finally out). [...] I have the same config on both MDD (9800XT 256MB) and
> PowerBook 5,8 (Mobility 9700 128MB).

I'd be interested in a comparison of running Lucy with the current drivers on your MDD vs. on your PowerBook. Would be nice if you could test it :-)

> Maybe the only transparent/alpha effetcs are used by the system menu
> and the Polynet dock

AFAIK, PolyNet uses fake transparency instead of real transparency (alpha compositing), so there's not much to calculate for the CPU anyway.

> the Powerbook installation is a mirror copy of the one present in the MDD HD
> and there is an huge difference in speed/smoothness.

That may be solely due to the R360 being faster than the RV360 in pure 2D operations like window moving/resizing. What I (and Jim) have been referring to specifically are effects using 2D operations which are normally calculated by the 3D part of the GPU but have to be calculated by the CPU as long as the needed functionality in the driver is missing, such as transparency done using alpha compositing. The question is whether or not such effects are rendered significantly faster with a faster 2D GPU. I'd like Lucy be taken as a yardstick because it makes intense use of this effect and also because it was reported to be unbearably slow on the PowerBook in that other thread.

It is for sure part of the 3D hardware part, but which has nothing to do with the 3d drivers.

In Bad Bramstedt 2012 and Geit@Home #3 several beta MorphOS 3.2 systems had "enhanced display functions" enabled on Powerbook and tools like Lucy or the new Ambient panels ran at full speed.

Even the nice screen brightness control blendover was visible for the first time on Betatester Powerbooks.

It can be seen at the beginning of my BB2012 presentation video, even if that is an iBook which already has fully working 3D drivers. On PowerBooks running 3.0 or 3.1. it is simply disabled when no enhanced display features are available to avoid heavy cpu load just for such a simple effect.

Just to make it clear. This has nothing to do with the 3D drivers made by bigfoot. The "Enhanced Display" stuff was added by cyfm recently and uses hardware acceleration of the r300 gpu.

Geit

[ Edited by geit 31.10.2012 - 13:36 ]

bash64,
Quote:
Yes, but those models aren't "otherwise supported".

Quoting myself:
Quote:
Sure, you can pick one with supported gfx chipset, but "rest of the laptop" isn't supported at all, so for now, completely useless from MorphOS point of view (aka "won't even boot")

No idea what will come first, R300 support, or support for earlier PowerBook models