'nother thing about the RPi... If its weird, binary blob graphics driver can be accommodated by MorphOS, couldn't similar linux blobs for NVidia chipsets also be accommodated that way? Wouldn't that make something like ouya.tv a better choice? Or just a better target as other NVidia based devices could then be supported...

amigadave,
Quote:
Agree...

Quote:

It is just a gambling: Putting a huge work to the porting to have the chance of joining some new talented guys.
And don't forget: MOS is not free (agains Linux, which is more advanced; AROS, which is also an Amiga like system).
A MOS like system only could be inviting, when there are many great apps for the most common areas of usual computer usage. Unfortunatelly, MOS has many white areas yet. So, I'd be far much more happy with new apps, than having a new plattform.

I think, the 'Trying to have someone who will do the work' is a bad approach.
What I'm saying is our community is quite small, but... the headcount is over 1000. If everybody pick up a small 'task' then there could be more small tools, etc. created. A (pro)active community could be also a very positive thing.

dekanyz wrote:,
Quote:

I think we agree on more things than we disagree about anything. I also don't think we need any more different platforms to be supported at this moment in time, and that more software is the most important thing, but this discussion was about the Raspberry Pi and how it might benefit the MorphOS community. There has been lots of discussion regarding porting MorphOS3.x to the ARM architecture, or should we instead focus on porting to the x86/x64 architecture. It sounds like you agree with me that more software is more important now than more ports to different hardware.

That being said, I am very happy to see that the port to G5 PowerMac's is happening, because I want the increased speed, and I have a dual 2.7GHz G5 PowerMac tower here waiting for the port to be completed.

Quote:

I think that MorphOS3.x ported to the Raspberry Pi could be interesting to a few computer programmers/enthusiasts that are owners of the Raspberry Pi, but only if such a port proved to run faster and better than the existing Linux ports currently running on the Raspberry Pi (plus the other requirements we have both already discussed in this thread).

Quote:

Not sure how you figured out that we have more than 1,000 users in our community, as my own guesstimate is closer to 750 to 850, with most registered users owning 2 to 3 registered/licensed MorphOS3.x compatible computers, and some of us own more than 3 registered/licensed MorphOS3.x computers, while some only have 1. You may be closer to being correct than I am with my guess, or we might both be way off, but it does not matter. What matters is what each of us does to help advance MorphOS3.x into the future.

I do like your thinking that the community would benefit if more of the users were more involved in doing what ever they could to help out with small programming tasks to fill the missing tools needed to expedite more software production in the future. I am trying to teach myself how to program, but admit that it will be years (if ever) before I consider myself productive enough at programming to be an asset to the community. Until then, I will continue to promote MorphOS3.x when ever I get the chance, and support the existing Team and third party programmers in any way I can.

Purchased A9 thingy to play with.
@ about $50, they're pretty cool.
A MorphOS port to ARM would allow us to use really low cost hardware (although I haven't really spent that much on Mac hardware either).

amigadave,
The 'more than 1000' user was just a guess. Because, the registrations are somewhere about 1700-1800 I thought the 1000 is real... but it also can be less too.


Quote:
There are many ways to help. The SW development is only one thing.
You can also write some howto-s, etc., if you want. Your english is far better, than mine!

I started MOS with 3.0 and found sometimes myself in real trouble, because of the lack of basic howto-s.
But, don't get me wrong: I don't want to force you to do something, what you don't want.

[ Edited by dekanyz 26.03.2013 - 09:49 ]

Jim wrote:,
Quote:

ARM hardware is hard to beat for "NEW" low cost to power provided ratio devices, but it is also hard to beat the price/power ratio of the existing (and soon to be) MorphOS3.1 supported Mac PPC hardware.

[ Edited by amigadave 26.03.2013 - 11:28 ]

Quote:
The lack of memory protection *is* a problem for people learning programming... I know some people will argue it's a good thing on the contrary but I think not. Rebooting after each and every bug is a pain in the ass. Especially if the machine isn't that fast.

That is why people used to learn programming with languages like Basic and now Lua (or Hollywood in our little world) where errors are harmless... And things generally a lot easier.

I am new to MorphZone. I have a few suggestions.

MorphOS should be ported to Raspberry Pi. Raspberry Pi is affordable hardware and it is an entry level hardware. Raspberry Pi is very popular and this would help bring in more registered users for MorphOS. I don't think MorphOS will overthrow Linux. Linux is also popular and it is very overrated. People will have to figure it out all by themselves that MorphOS is superior.

I just read a forum post where a developer said that they were going to switch to a new architecture, after they have ported to many of the PowerPC Macs,

Instead, I think there should be a port to ARM while supporting the PowerPC hardware. They can begin with Raspberry Pi. If porting to another ISA is too difficult then they should not port the AmigaOS compatibility to ARM.

Doing this would not mean that MorphOS will be completely without software. Software developers will be interested in developing software for MorphOS if there was a MorphOS distro available for ARM. Isn't one of the reasons why MorphOS had little software is because software developers do not want to develop software for PowerPC?

There should be two supported ARM hardware options for the "Caterpillar OS" distro of MorphOS. Examples could be:

The Raspberry Pi for the reasons I have already mentioned,

and an Efika "MorphBook" (already suggested by somebody else in this thread) because Genesi has slight affiliation with MorphOS.

> If porting to another ISA is too difficult then they should not port
> the AmigaOS compatibility to ARM.

That's what they said anyway:

"The problem related to this (change of architecture) is that the PPC & 68K compatibility will likely be lost."
https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=8121&forum=9&start=18

> Isn't one of the reasons why MorphOS had little software is because
> software developers do not want to develop software for PowerPC?

I don't think that the underlying CPU ISA plays a significant role for most application or game developers. After all, they're usually programming in languages which hide the actual CPU ISA from them. So I guess it has more to do with MorphOS rather than the PPC per se.
However, considering that the current hardware choice of MorphOS means that its target audience and that of its software is rather limited, it's probably true that most software developers do not want to develop software for an OS that runs on such limited hardware scale.

There are probably millions of Power Macs.

I am quite sure we are going to see a very broad shift to multiple ARM cores both on desktop and servers in coming years. It has to do with saving power and making hardware smaller. With the cortexA57 64bits, coming out in a year or 2, we will see more powerful and incredibly energy efficient hardware. This is at least a path that carries a bit of the legacy of MorphOS, being is a lightweight OS and currently on efficient PPC.

The RPi is such a smart thing. Maybee not so powerful, but its cheap and its small and it will give many people who could not afford a computer to actually own one and learn programming.

A MorphOS move to ARM, would be smart to make the first release for RPi, even if it is a cheap stripped version of it (only the most essential) it could become very popular.

I cant really see why MorphOS would go for x64/86? Even if it is the most spread and exist powerful hardware, it doesnt share the energyefficient and lightweight idea, which is the trend for the future and part of the legacy of Morphos.

Tomas

> There are probably millions of Power Macs.

I don't think that machines that are only available used are considered a viable target platform by most developers.

My opinion is that WHEN the MorphOS Dev. Team finally decides to move on to a new hardware architecture, be that in 6 months from now, or 5 years down the road, they should choose the more energy efficient ARM architecture. And since they have already stated that they will most likely loose backward compatibility with Amiga 68k software during that change, why not make a complete jump with a new kernel that will also allow for the use of many existing drivers, by using an existing Linux kernel and building a new MorphOS on top of it.

Then we could use the existing Linux based UAE for backward compatibility with Amiga programs. I think this is the only feasible way forward that would allow greater flexibility, and possibly the MorphOS Dev. Team could even make it so we could run any Linux program with little or even zero changes, or recompiling, from this new version of MorphOS for ARM.

I have faith in the MorphOS Dev. Team to make such a Linux based new operating system, so that it would not be just another flavor of Linux, but a true successor of our current PPC MorphOS3.x.

[ Edited by amigadave 01.04.2013 - 17:12 ]

I recently purchased a Pi 2 B, and am UTTERLY impressed! I can run 99% of my giant PSX catalog without any major issues what so ever. Debian runs pretty darn good on it, and it can play BlueRay quality videos. Considering how well MorphOS actually works on the Efika (despite it's very very limited RAM), I can see now reason why the PI 2 could now allow for MorphOS to fully shine, UAE4All and everything.

Imagine a $35 MorphOS computer (minus case, power supply, HDMI cord, Keyboard, Mouse, and Wifi dongle.)
Now to only consider what small, low cost ARM based computers will be on the market should MorphOS decide to go the ARM route and eventually make the move. The Pi 2 B will probably be outdated by then at the and surpassed by better hardware at the same price.

Quote:

I know what you mean. I also purchased a Raspberry Pi 2, and believe that done correctly, a completely new version of MorphOS for ARM architecture (if also implemented with memory protection and SMP) would rock on the Raspberry Pi 2.

Following up on my earlier post in this thread, I sincerely believe that the MorphOS Dev. Team could make an ARM version of MorphOS using the Linux kernel, AND make this new NG version of MorphOS able to run Linux software through some kind of wrapper or layer, that would instantly give the new version of MorphOS tons of software to run, but still look and feel like the MorphOS we have come to love and respect. Weather the new MorphOS needs something like Wine to run Linux software, or some other method does not matter. I have confidence that the MorphOS Dev. Team could make something that is NOT just another Linux distribution that looks like MorphOS, but a realy NG version of MorphOS that is also capable of somehow running most Linux software.

IMO, this would be a killer version of MorphOS, which would make all other AmigaNG platforms obsolete, as I am sure that the MorphOS Dev. Team could do this better and faster than the people currently working on AEROS, which is basically the same idea.

Quote:


Not quite how it works... Sure you can use the linux kernel for drivers.

However if you want to use linux applications without "porting" you basically become a linux distro as you need to include all the dependencies required for running the applications on top of the linux kernel.

What Pascal is doing is basically running AROS hosted and piping commands to the linux side from AROS while displaying them in linux.


[ Edited by terminills 05.09.2015 - 22:47 ]

Linux = Linux.
Linux ≠ MorphOS.
Linux ≠ AROS. (or does it? AROS Usually Hosted On Linux.)

If Morph cannot port MorphOS native to the ARM Raspberry Pi Device Series, then they could use Linux. Especially considering Binary Blob or whatever difficulty encountered with porting to ARM Pi Device. If I remember, AROS Native was constructed using a Linux Binary Blob.

I do not think MorphOS should follow the same path of AROS, commonly being hosted to Linux. Or, an AEROS version of MorphOS. What if Morph developers scrap the native MorphOS?

I have confidence that MorphOS developers can reverse engineer anything. They supported the Apple AirPort Cards, which was believed to be impossible. Because of their skill level, I do not think it is necessary for them to rely on Linux. (I suppose, with the exception of hosting MorphOS websites web servers.)

I understand the use of Linux Software. Perhaps KDE? But if such as MorphOS should be created, it must be separate from MorphOS. And the Unix Linux BSD X Windows System affiliated version of MorphOS just simply cannot be called MorphOS.

Unfortunately, MorphIX already exists and it is not developed by Morph Zone Team.

Quote:

AROS native used the binary firmware from Broadcom not a Linux binary driver.

While Linux has earned my respect over the years, and does remain on a laptop and desktop of mine, I am not dying to be able to launch Linux apps from within MorphOS, nor do I have a desire to see them merged beyond using Linux as a means to boot MorphOS.

I would like to play with AEROS since it does exist, but you have to pay for it and I don't always have spare cash laying around. Plus I was not impressed with AEROS on my laptop, it seemed very bloated for a Debian distro let alone AROS distro.

[ Edited by XDelusion 05.09.2015 - 21:02 ]

Quote:

I am sure you are right, but my thinking is that our MorphOS Dev. Team is smart enough to develop something new and different, that takes advantage of the Linux kernel for drivers, plus build an interpreter, or intermediate layer of some kind that allows the new MorphOS to run Linux programs, but maybe not be just another Linux distro.

I suppose they could even use a different kernel that provides all the drivers we need, but I believe that building some kind of Linux compatibility, or emulator, or interpreter, of some kind that would allow us to run most, or all Linux software, would increase the chances of success greatly. We would instantly have tons of software available to us, and existing Linux developers could more easily develop new software for MorphOS as well.

Perhaps my idea is not feasible, but I assume nothing is impossible until someone actually tries to do it and fails repeatedly, or proves the idea is flawed from the very beginning with some hard facts. Even then, there is usually always a way around obstacles, but sometimes the effort is not worth the results.

Edit: On second thought, I guess it would just be better if we could more easily recompile Linux software to run on the new MorphOS, instead of trying to implement an X-Window replacement on MorphOS. I suppose that just by switching to ARM or x64, it will make some things easier to port to MorphOS in the future.

[ Edited by amigadave 05.09.2015 - 19:00 ]

> MorphOS developers [...] supported the Apple AirPort Cards, which was believed
> to be impossible.

By whom? Certainly not by anybody who had been aware of the fact that Linux and BSD started to support AirPort Extreme 8.5 years before

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6237&forum=3&start=337

> MorphIX already exists and it is not developed by Morph Zone Team.

Morph Zone Team?

Quote:

At least one of the MorphOS Dev. Team stated at one time or another that the AirPort Extreme would NOT be supported in future versions of MorphOS. This was somewhere between MorphOS3.1 and MorphOS3.5 I think, so I was pleasantly surprised when support of the built-in AirPort Extreme was announced for MorphOS.

>>> MorphOS developers [...] supported the Apple AirPort Cards, which was believed
>>> to be impossible.

>> By whom? Certainly not by anybody who had been aware of the fact that Linux
>> and BSD started to support AirPort Extreme 8.5 years before
>> https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6237&forum=3&start=337

> At least one of the MorphOS Dev. Team stated at one time or another that
> the AirPort Extreme would NOT be supported in future versions of MorphOS.

But did he actually state it was impossible to support it, or just that it wouldn't be supported (for whatever reason besides impossibility)?

Edit: This comment was originally a reply to that comment, which was spun off by the powers that be into another thread, together with other comments.


Update:

> https://www.patreon.com/posts/dromaiidae-emu-24407987
> [...] https://github.com/michalsc/Emu68

https://www.patreon.com/posts/m68k-based-30711890

[ Edited by Andreas_Wolf 17.01.2020 - 21:17 ]