Quote:

probably someone has no idea what is support SEVEN ! different models of PowerMac G4, I think

fantastic MorphOS team ready to buy now the KEY

[ Edited by Divinity on 2010/8/26 21:52 ]

Quote:

Yes! Seconded! Had the money set aside months ago (when I re-flashed the 9250)! Will run around spouting "I've got the KEY!" like Timothy Leary when you release it!

It's Eight if you count the QS, QS (2002), MDD, MDD (2003) separately

Just reworked the summary (hopefully for the last time) after realising that the Model Descriptor (eg PowerMac3,x) seems to be the best way of describing the hardware (rather than the various other numbers Apple uses inconsistently).

Quote:

Nine, not eight so :
PowerMac AGP Graphics
PowerMac AGP Gigabit Ethernet
PowerMac AGP Digital Audio
PowerMac AGP Quicksilver
PowerMac AGP Quicksilver 2002
PowerMac AGP Quicksilver 2002ED
PowerMac AGP Quicksilver MDD
PowerMac AGP Quicksilver FW800
PowerMac AGP Quicksilver MDD 2003

Very pleased to see my Mac sitting in that list! Thanks. Wondering whether a Geforce 4 TI would work? Got an Echo Mia sound card, but that's pretty exotic.

Just realised I joined this site back in 2003 and have only made 7 posts, probably most of them as to why don't you support PowerMac's

[ Edited by wonea on 2010/8/27 17:21 ]

NVidia is a complete nogo, only Radeons are supported (not really true, but the other cards aren't a real option either).

You'll need a Radeon7000-9250 (re)flashed with a Mac-BIOS, some of the bigger Radeons might also work, but only in 2D.

I'm also really looking forward to the Powermac support in the upcoming 2.6 release and I really appreciate the efforts to make it also run on older Powermacs 3,1 - 3,3 , MorphOS is the perfect OS for the slow 7400 G4, and I hope you can manage to get it running on that early G4.

Anyway, is it true that there won't be onboard sound support for Powermac 3,1 - 3,3 ? Well, it won't be a big issue for the users, because you can use a PCI SBLive.

[ Edited by analogkid on 2010/8/30 10:21 ]

> is it true that there won't be onboard sound support for Powermac 3,1 - 3,3 ?

I guess if it wasn't true then pega-1 wouldn't have claimed it :-)

Seems that i've overread this part of Franks statement. Thanks for showing it up again.

Edited to keep me from feeling too stupid. Sorry.

[ Edited by Jim on 2010/8/31 2:24 ]

> That might be ideal for 7400 owners, but the work required would be
> even greater than PCI G4 Powermac (so it doesn't seem remotely likely).

Huh? PowerMac3,1 to PowerMac3,3 *do have* MPC7400.

http://www.everymac.com/ultimate-mac-lookup/?search_keywords=PowerMac3,1
http://www.everymac.com/ultimate-mac-lookup/?search_keywords=PowerMac3,3
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Mac_G4#Original_models

> Doesn't the 7400 forego Altivec instructions?

No, of course not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerPC_G4#Design
http://www.freescale.com/files/32bit/doc/ref_manual/MPC7400UM.pdf
http://www.freescale.com/files/32bit/doc/data_sheet/MPC7400TS.pdf
http://www.freescale.com/files/32bit/doc/data_sheet/MPC7400EC.pdf

@Andreas_Wolf

>Huh? PowerMac3,1 to PowerMac3,3 *do have* MPC7400.

If I recognise it correctly, the MPC7410 used in the 466 and 533 Mhz versions of Powermac 3,4 (Digital Audio) is "just" a low-power version of the MPC7400, so the differences should be marginal. The MPC7450 seems to be a major overhaul of the earlier G4 cpus.

[ Edited by analogkid on 2010/8/30 22:09 ]

> If I recognise it correctly, the MPC7410 used in the 466 and 533 Mhz versions of
> Powermac 3,4 (Digital Audio) is "just" a low-power version of the MPC7400

Mainly, yes. There are some minor differences other than power usage though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerPC_G4#PowerPC_7410
http://www.freescale.com/files/32bit/doc/ref_manual/MPC7410UM.pdf (page 85)
http://www.freescale.com/files/32bit/doc/prod_brief/MPC7410TS.pdf (page 35)
http://www.freescale.com/files/32bit/doc/data_sheet/MPC7410EC.pdf (page 2)

> The MPC7450 seems to be a major overhaul of the earlier G4 cpus.

Exactly, therefore the monikers "G4e" or "G4+".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerPC_G4#PowerPC_7450
http://www.freescale.com/files/32bit/doc/ref_manual/MPC7450UM.pdf (pages 110 to 112)
http://www.freescale.com/files/32bit/doc/prod_brief/MPC7450TS.pdf (pages 54 to 56)
http://www.freescale.com/files/32bit/doc/data_sheet/MPC7450EC.pdf (pages 7 to 9)

Edited to keep me from feeling too stupid. Sorry.

[ Edited by Jim on 2010/8/31 2:25 ]

> This would still require the development team to work on additional
> chipsets/hardware that I doubt they'd want to be troubled with.

Again, as you seem to have missed my last answer to you: PowerMac3,1 to PowerMac3,3 *do have* MPC7400. And as MorphOS is announced for these machines we can safely assume that the MorphOS Team does want to be troubled with their hardware.

> Some of the machines that use this Processor even appear to have AGP slots

Yes, that's the whole point of it in terms of MorphOS. All PowerMac G4 generations with AGP are supposed to be supported (but probably not every model of each generation, see there). I cannot believe that you've forgotten that:

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6684&forum=11&post_id=75390#75390

> although I did check what type yet

We (as in you and me) discussed that at lengths already:

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7261&forum=11&post_id=75095#75095

> The PCI slot equipped 7400s could still be useful with a supported PCI graphics card.

According to the MorphOS Team the PCI based PowerMac G4 generation (PowerMac1,2, "Yikes") will not be supported.

> I've never considered looking back at the older hardware.

I think you did, but forgot, which is frightening ;-)

> There's a lot of systems that could be supported if the developers had the
> time for them all.

All PowerMac G4 generations except the very first one are AGP based.

Actually, I pretty much skipped over early G4 Macs. I had some friends using G3s, but by the time the first G4s staring to hit the market, I'd pretty much ignored Mac.

I moved from the 68K to X86 hardware. PowerPC never really interested me as Apple was the only major player selling boxes with PPCs in them to the consumer. I've got to admit that I've always discounted Apple because I simply am not fond of the management.

Right now, I probably know more about the e600 than I do about G3 and G4s. Sorry about the hasty posts. If I'd spent more time researching my information, I wouldn't have made the mistakes you've pointed out.

[ Edited by Jim on 2010/8/31 2:26 ]

@Andreas_Wolf

> Yes, that's the whole point of it in terms of MorphOS. All PowerMac G4 generations with AGP are supposed to be supported (but probably not every model of each generation

For my understanding, it's just a matter of the used CPU. If it couldn't be managed to get the 7400 running, a cpu upgrade should help. As pega-1 pointed out in one of your given links, the support of Powermac 3,1 to Powermac 3,3 doesn't mean that it is supported with its original cpus. But I'm sure you know this :)

> For my understanding, it's just a matter of the used CPU. If it couldn't be managed to get
> the 7400 running, a cpu upgrade should help. As pega-1 pointed out in one of your given
> links, the support of Powermac 3,1 to Powermac 3,3 doesn't mean that it is supported with
> its original cpus.

I think you misunderstood what he wrote. Here's the relevant part:

"...PowerMac G4 support including models PowerMac3,1 to PowerMac3,6 with the requirement of [...] at least a 500MHz cpu card. The cpu part is still a bit open since we don't have machines with < 1GHz G4 CPUs for testing really and there are some known problems for the original low end 350/400/450/466MHz cards found in PowerMac3,1 to PowerMac3,4"

So it's seemingly not a matter of the type of MPC74xx (MPC7400 or MPC7410 or whatever) but a matter of the clocking, for whatever reason which pega-1 didn't explain. At least that's how I've understood his statement. In detail this would mean:

PowerMac1,2 (MPC7400):
- not supported: 350 and 400 MHz
- supported: none

PowerMac3,1 (MPC7400):
- not supported: 350, 400 and 450 MHz
- supported: 500 MHz

PowerMac3,3 (MPC7400):
- not supported: 400 and 450 MHz
- supported: 500 MHz

PowerMac3,4 (MPC7410):
- not supported: 466 MHz
- supported: 533 MHz (as well as MPC7450 at 667 and 733 MHz)

PowerMac3,5 and PowerMac3,6 (MPC7450 and MPC7455(B)):
- not supported: none
- supported: all

Quote:

Thanks for that missing info Andreas, I've consolidated it into the OP.

@Andreas_Wolf:
< I think you misunderstood what he wrote. Here's the relevant part:

And what about 3rd-party cpu upgrades? As far as I've heard Powermac support is also tested on a Powermac 3,1 with a cpu upgrade card.

So, just a example:

Powermac3,1 - 3,4 (MPC7447a) (many cpu upgrades from Sonnet feature a 7447a)
supported?



[ Edited by analogkid on 2010/8/31 13:36 ]

> X-Serve G4 range, [...] their model Identifiers are RackMac5.5.

There's no "RackMac5.5" or "RackMac5,5". The Xserve G4 is RackMac1,1 and RackMac1,2, while the Xserve G5 is RackMac3,1.

http://www.everymac.com/ultimate-mac-lookup/?search_keywords=RackMac1,1
http://www.everymac.com/ultimate-mac-lookup/?search_keywords=RackMac1,2
http://www.everymac.com/ultimate-mac-lookup/?search_keywords=RackMac3,1

> Andreas_Wolf (rumour-monger :-P)

;-)

> what about 3rd-party cpu upgrades?

I really don't know, I've never read any (semi-)official word on this other than that we shouldn't assume that any 3rd party CPU upgrade would be supported.

> As far as I've heard Powermac support is also tested on a
> Powermac 3,1 with a cpu upgrade card.

Nice if it's true. Do you know which CPU card that is specifically? An MPC7448 card would be too much to hope for I guess ;-)

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6770&forum=3&post_id=69337#69337

> Powermac3,1 - 3,4 (MPC7447a) (many cpu upgrades from Sonnet feature a 7447a)
> supported?

I'm the wrong one to answer this. You should rather ask that to a MorphOS Team member.

@boot_wb:

Thanks for your fairly complete list of supported Powermac G4 versions. There are some points which I want to annotate.

"PowerMac3,3:
--4 x DIMM banks;
--Supports PC100 SDRAM (Max 1.5GB);
----3.3V, 168-pin, unbuffered, non-registered (does not mention non-ECC or non-parity);
----Maximum of 16 devices (ie may be double-sided, but no more than 16 chips in total) per DIMM. [4]"

I think you mean the maximum memory which this model can use, not only the maximum MorphOS can use. Mac OS X can use the full 2 GB of RAM in the PowerMac3,3.

And some of the older PowerMac 3,1 - 3,5 support only harddrives < 128 GByte on the internal ATA controllers, don't know if it will affect MorphOS.

> I think you mean the maximum memory which this model can use,
> not only the maximum MorphOS can use. Mac OS X can use the full
> 2 GB of RAM in the PowerMac3,3.

I guess that's why his list says "Anecdotally, PowerMac3,1 - PowerMac3,3 may also support 2GB ram" some lines below ;-)
1.5 GiB is actually what Apple claims as maximum RAM for both the PowerMac3,1 and PowerMac3,3:

http://support.apple.com/kb/SP123
http://support.apple.com/kb/SP117

The fact that they also work with 2 GiB RAM is more or less unofficial. I don't know where boot_wb's "Max 1GB" for the PowerMac3,1 comes from, though.

> The fact that they also work with 2 GiB RAM is
> more or less unofficial. I don't know where
> boot_wb's "Max 1GB" for the PowerMac3,1 comes
> from, though.

Yes, indeed. Unofficial in the sense that several (Macintosh OS) users, including myself[*], have stated that they can operate their early AGP-Macs with 2GB of physical memory when running Mac OS X. Maybe boot_wb got that information from official web sites of the Apple company which have not been updated anymore. Or Apple might not have offered warranty to users who used 512MB memory bars in their early Power Macintosh G4 (AGP) Macs, so they did not intend to encourage them to swap memory bars; something like that might have led to contradictory statements on the internet.

At the point in time these early G4 Macs were released, in 1999 or something, 512MB bars for these machines were simply not available to average customers; maybe they were still developing at that point in time(?).

Power Macintosh G4 (PCI) boards are, however, limited to a maximum of 1GB physical memory; the ones MorphOS developers do not support.

[*] I have just upgraded my Power Macintosh G4 (AGP), 350MHz (i.e. "PowerMac3,1") to the maximum of 2GB. I took three of the four RAM modules required for doing this from my Quicksilver 800. This G4 Mac (350MHz) recognizes the full RAM of 2GB if I use Debian Linux ("Squeeze Testing"), Mac OS X, and even Mac OS 9. I was really surprised that even Mac OS 9 supports 2GB ("1,99GB") if I add the memory bars to this comparatively old G4 model.

Yet, I am not sure if I will upgrade the hardware components of this Macintosh to 500MHz if this becomes necessary to run MorphOS on it. For I might not dare to do this as I use this machine for productivity purposes. We shall see if it works in a satisfying way when MorphOS 2.6 is released. If it is even possible to run MorphOS on comparatively slow machines like Efika boards, however, I think a processor speed of 350MHz should not be too problematic.

Btw, I really like boot_wb's list. Thanks for the new information! It has become an extensive overview for people who are interested in running future releases of MorphOS on PowerMac G4 hardware (apart from what is already possible, G4 mini and eMac 1,25). Maybe you want to update this list if MorphOS 2.6 will be released in the future and tell others which PowerMacs G4 it works on? The basis would be user reports, of course.