> I wouldn't be surprised to see other audio cards supported in the future.

https://morph.zone/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1788 :-)

> I think only one of them is PATA [...]. The other two controllers are ATA66 & ATA100

Huh? "PATA" is just the newish designation for old "ATA" and came in useful to discern from then new "SATA". "ATA66" or "ATA100" are just one and the same as "PATA66" or "PATA100".

PATA (Parallel ATA) isnt really a new term but has been a more common short form since SATA (Serial ATA) has been around.
The MDD PowerMac G4 models have 3 PATA controller flavours on board. Those are an Ultra ATA 100MHz (as used in the Mac mini) one, another Ultra ATA 66MHz one and last but not least a 33MHz EIDE one.
The earlier PMac G4 models (including the preceding Quicksilver model) do not have the Ultra ATA 100MHz controller but only the two other ones.
All onboard PATA controller flavours will be supported by the initial MorphOS (2.6) PowerMac G4 release.

We are planning to have networking supported for all G4 models from PowerMac 3,1 (SawTooth) to PowerMac 3,6 (MDD)

Onboard Audio is only supported for the PowerMac 3,4 to PowerMac 3,6 range in the initial release and it will only be an output driver for now.

Onboard USB (1.1) will be supported for all models. Afaik only the MDD/FW800 model allows "upgrading" to 2.0 but this is not really supported for MorphOS yet. You can always add a EHCI USB 2.0 pci card if you need it ...

MorphOS supports a maximum amount of 1.5GB memory, even though you could plug 2GB
into the MDD models which have 4 memory slots. They are shared on all available CPUs.

MorphOS will (obviously) only support a single CPU for now. There are some ideas how to use the second, unused one as some sort of co-processor but this is nothing relevant for an initial (and even followup) release(s). MorphOS will stay a single cpu core OS for now and I don't see that changing for various reasons that have been discussed (to death) in the past already....

There are currently issues with some add-on boards like SbLive! audio and SATA SiI3x12 cards which have driver support inside MorphOS but don't work stable in the PowerMac G4. I am looking forward to have that fixed for the release...

bye
Frank

Thanks for the clarification about all three controllers being PATA (for the too lazy to look it up, like me) and for the update regarding G4 PowerMac support being worked on. I have to boot up my MDD PowerMacs and check to see if they are 3,3 models, or later which have the audio output.

Sounds like things are moving along well. If onboard sound is working, I can shelve the SB Live card till these issues are worked out.
The Envy24HT based cards that were referenced previously by Andreas could be an even better solution.
Thanks greatly, Frank.

BTW - I still think MOS owns the future of Amiga development.

Boot_wb: great research!

jacadcaps:
> Yes, the graphics card has to have a Mac bios. No idea
> about PCI - if you can get a supported PCI card, it might
> as well work (it still has to have a Mac bios).

Sure, I understand that graphic cards in Power Mac G4 computers must have a Mac bios. However, can we also look forward to run MorphOS on Power Mac G4 (PCI Graphics) computers (Apple?s codename: Yikes!), though they do not offer an AGP graphics slot? If you state "it might as well work", do you mean only as a 2nd graphical card during operation or could a PCI graphics card completely replace AGP if I operate my Power Mac with MorphOS, i.e. could I do without AGP?

If an AGP graphical card is not crucial, is it perhaps even possible to run MorphOS on a Power Mac G3 (Blue & White) extended with a G4 upgrade card?

http://www.everymac.com/upgrade_cards/by_system/powermac_g3_blue.html


pega-1:
> MorphOS supports a maximum amount of 1.5GB memory, even
> though you could plug 2GB into the MDD models which have
> 4 memory slots. They are shared on all available CPUs.

Several Power Macintosh G4 machines older than the Quicksilver series also have got 4 RAM slots and, using Mac OS X, a maximum of 2 GB RAM was supported by the hardware. Yet, I guess that 2 GB of memory will probably not be supported on those computers if you run MorphOS, as these limitations also apply to MDD machines.

@g4QS_redux

Don't count on support for anything older than PowerMac3,1

Quote:

I think I was pretty clear when i wrote

"MorphOS supports a maximum amount of 1.5GB memory"

even though you are right that older models than MDD had 4 slots as well. Only the PowerMac3,4 and PowerMac3,5 (Quicksilver) models had 3 slots. This doesn't change anything about the stated facts, though.

@Pega-1

Great stuff, thanks for all the info Frank.
Didn't realise that one of the PATA Connections was EIDE (ATA 3) though - I can't find any documentation on it at all (Apple only seems to like mentioning the 'marketable' features).

Best Regards



Rich

[ Edited by boot_wb on 2010/8/26 0:38 ]

AmigaDave

Thanks for the reminder about the PATA buses - I'd totally forgotten to ask about them.

Quote:
Certainly the Powe rMac (PCI Graphics) has a 66MHz PCI slot dedicated for the graphics card. Don't know if "Yikes!" is the same one or not..

Quote:
However, regardless of the number of DIMM slots, only the DDR-equipped models (MDD, FW800) support >1.5GB memory (if Apple docs are accurate in this regard).

[ Edited by boot_wb on 2010/8/26 0:17 ]

[ Edited by boot_wb on 2010/8/26 0:21 ]

@ pega-1:

I appreciate your information but there's really no need to tell *me* things I know already and even explained to others here in this thread :-) (see threaded view in case you don't know what I mean)

Quote:

I have talked to owners of older Powermacs like the Digital Audio that have all four memory slots equipped with 512MB PC100 or PC133 memory for a total of 2Gigs.
Apple also claims that their older models only support up to 128GB hard drives, but PPC Linux will partition and format larger drives on these models (my Quicksilver 160GB drive is fully utilized that way with an OSX partition and a Linux partition).

Edit - I thought I'd mention one qualifier about 512MB SDRAM strips. While DDR memory in Powermacs is fairly standard, SDR 512MB strips must be low density. If you're going to try to outfit an older Powermac with 512MB memory strips, make sure they're Apple compatible (most aren't).
On the other hand, most 256MB strips will work.

[ Edited by Jim on 2010/8/26 0:53 ]

@jacadcaps:
> Don't count on support for anything older than PowerMac3,1

Well, I don't expect the MorphOS team to actively support all sorts of hardware, for I understand that only a limited number of people work on MorphOS. Yet, I personally think it would be great if the MorphOS Installation CD will not block per se specific G4 processors / PowerMac models / mainboards any longer in future releases. I guess that some former Amiga users (and I am one of them) just want to give MorphOS a try on their hardware, even if they will have to solve some problems with machines not _officially_ supported by the developers of the operating system; maybe also with the help of fellows in the forums.

As I have already owned two PowerMac G4 computers for several years, I was actually a bit disappointed at that time that both of them were not supported in previous releases of MorphOS, for I neither own a PowerMac Mini nor an eMac.

If you put your plans of supporting almost all Power Mac G4 desktop models into practice in a new release of MorphOS 2.6, however, users will have numerous options to choose from, and that is what I am looking forward to. After I have read many of the MorphOS related news in the past weeks I am quite optimistic at the moment that I will soon be able to install and test MorphOS on one of my PPC computers.

@boot_wb, Jim:
To get a quick overview on Macintosh computers, their specifications, and codenames I frequently use the following website:

http://www.apple-history.com/?page=gallery&model=g4pci&sort=date&performa=off&order=ASC

It seems that people here, however, prefer to use the Model IDs of Macintosh computers:

http://www.everymac.com/systems/by_capability/mac-specs-by-machine-model-machine-id.html

There is also a terrific freeware tool, though this is only available for Mac OS and Windows operating systems:

http://www.mactracker.ca/

I did not try this myself, but according to apple-history.com non-PCI based pre-Quicksilver Desktop Powermacs G4 feature 4 RAM slots and they offer a maximum of 2 GB usable RAM (4 x 512 MB).

@g4QS_redux

Thanks for the links & info, I've added them to the summary.

> I personally think it would be great if the MorphOS Installation CD will not block per se
> specific G4 processors / PowerMac models / mainboards any longer in future releases.

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7310&forum=11#75811

I don't know if these limitations are still valid though.

Pega1

Thanks a lot for the status report! Very exciting. How are 3d drivers for Radeon r300 range (powermacs and powerbooks) looking?

I believe I have read, in more than one place, that MacOS9 only supports 1.5gb RAM, but in my 1.25GHz Dual G4 PowerMac MDD (no FW800) model, it recognizes 1.99gb of my installed 2gb RAM. My G4 came with a dual boot of MacOS9.2.2 & MacOSX10.2.6 on the same partition (which I did not know was possible, I thought 2 partitions were required for dual booting). Maybe it cannot access all 2gb of RAM, but MacOS9.2.2 shows it in the about this Mac menu item.

@Andreas_Wolf:
>> I personally think it would be great if the MorphOS Installation
>> CD will not block per se specific G4 processors / PowerMac models /
>> mainboards any longer in future releases.

> https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7310&forum=11#75811

> I don't know if these limitations are still valid though.


I guess I just have to wait for the next MorphOS release. Maybe I will be able to run this system on either my Quicksilver G4/800, or on my G4/350 AGP. Anyway, I expect that I would have to test MorphOS extensively, for I do not expect that everything will run out-of-the box right from the beginning. I intend to keep on using these hardware systems in future times, however, so I appreciate that MorphOS is being ported to these computers.

The only thing I upgraded besides memory and bigger HDDs was the graphics card, for I got an ATI Radeon 9200. I think I could use it in both machines, but at the moment I use it in the G4/350 AGP. Yet, I already checked whether the graphics card was compatible with MorphOS before I bought it last year.

Usually I run MacOS 9.2.2, Mac OS X 10.4.11, and Debian Lenny on my G4 PowerMacs. Of course I could use LeopardAssist

http://sourceforge.net/projects/leopardassist/

to install Mac OS X 10.5 on my 4th generation PowerMacs, but it would just be too slow. Hopefully I will not have to use similar tricks just to fool the MorphOS 2.6 installation CD...

As Apple already dropped support for Mac OS 10.4 "Tiger" regarding Security Updates, I assume that this will also happen to Mac OS 10.5 when the next Mac OS X release is out, for that is the usual policy of the Apple company. Then it is likely that even PowerMac G5 users running Mac OS X 10.5 will be left in the lurch. Thus, MorphOS is (apart from a couple of Linux and BSD distros for PPC machines, which are also getting fewer) a way out of this dilemma for people who still want to use their old PowerPC G4 hardware.

And I still hope that it will also be possible to install MorphOS on PowerMac G4 (PCI) computers and PowerMac G3 b/w with G4 upgrades, but I will try this out myself as soon as MophOS 2.6 is out for I do not expect you to actively support these machines.


@amigadave:
> I believe I have read, in more than one place, that MacOS9 only
> supports 1.5gb RAM,

Yes, I remember that several Macintosh magazines and websites, including e.g.

http://www.apple-history.nl/g4agp.html

provide(d) Macintosh users with this information.

> but in my 1.25GHz Dual G4 PowerMac MDD (no FW800) model, it
> recognizes 1.99gb of my installed 2gb RAM. [..] Maybe it cannot
> access all 2gb of RAM, but MacOS9.2.2 shows it in the about
> this Mac menu item.

I cannot check this myself at the moment, for I only use an amount of 384 MB RAM in my G4/350(AGP), and my Quciksilver has only got 3 RAM slots, i.e. in this computer there is a maximum of 1.5GB memory, anyway. Yet, I found a Macintosh user who tried to fix some problems with his G4 MDD here (German speaking forum, sorry):

http://www.macuser.de/forum/f6/os9-boot-cd-534261/

Finally he provided readers with a snapshot of his Mac OS 9 screen here:

http://www.macuser.de/forum/f6/os9-boot-cd-534261/index6.html#post6212726

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs063.snc4/34492_414130509524_780099524_4369341_7262728_n.jpg

I think this proves that at least the fastest G4 Macs capable of running Mac OS 9, the MDD ones, recognize 2GB of RAM if you use this operating system. I remember, however, that even slower G4 Macs could use the full 2 GB at least if you use Mac OS X, for this information was frequently spread in the media at times when Mac OS X was still a fairly new operating system.

If you own proprietary productivity software for Mac OS 9 which uses a lot of RAM, e.g. Adobe's Photoshop or Apple's FCP, you might want to check yourself if your G4 MDD can access all 2GB of RAM by running a number of these programs at the same time. "About this Macintosh" provides you with information on memory consumption. Maybe you would also like to experiment with the "Virtual Memory" control panel, in addition (and _restart_). Probably "Virtual Memory" will still be limited to a maximum of 1GB(?), even if 2GB of physical RAM is installed.


> My G4 came with a dual boot of MacOS9.2.2 & MacOSX10.2.6 on
> the same partition (which I did not know was possible, I thought
> 2 partitions were required for dual booting).

Yes, that is possible, if both system folders were "blessed" (that is what a sort of activation is often called) the way they should be by the operating systems' installers. If you want to, you can, of course, use different partitions. Just remember to always install Mac OS 9 drivers if you add a new hard disk drive to your system to install Mac OS X _before_ you actually start the Mac OS X installation tool. To do this, either use Drive Setup in an already "natively" booted Mac OS 9 or activate Mac OS 9 drivers in the Mac OS X hard disk tool before the partitioning process, though I am not sure if this option ist still offered in Leopard. Thus, you might have to use 10.3 or 10.4 installation discs. It is, however, crucial to install Mac OS 9 drivers if you want to access HFS(+) partitions created by Mac OS X using "natively" booted Mac OS 9.2 systems, and hard disk support for Mac OS 9 cannot be added later.

I wonder, however, how MorphOS can later be added to set up a computer system with three or four (MorphOS, Mac OS 9, Mac OS X, Linux) operating systems. Well, hopefully it can be integrated into a boot loader like yaboot, but I will try to find out all the details about this once MorphOS 2.6 will be released for a variety of PowerMac G4 desktop "towers".

[ Edited by g4QS_redux on 2010/8/26 12:57 ]

Quote:

Guide for configuring yaboot for multi-boot (rough & ready, but works):

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7319&forum=9

@boot_wb:
> Guide for configuring yaboot for multi-boot (rough & ready, but works):
> https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7319&forum=9

Wow, that?s an excellent guide on using advanced functions of the yaboot boot loader and I got it bookmarked in my web browser. Thanks a lot!

I wish I had found something similar when I installed triple-boot on my G4 Quicksilver several years ago (Mac OS 9, Mac OS X, YDL).


> apple-history
> Everymac
> Mac HW database tool(Windows/MacOS)

Just one more thing: Maybe it?s better if you change the apple-history link in your initial posting to http://www.apple-history.com/ or http://www.apple-history.nl/ to avoid that someone will buy the model it refers to by mistake - unless he knows what he is doing, of course.

I guess both web sites, http://www.apple-history.com/ and http://www.apple-history.nl/ are basically the same. Currently your reference in the first posting is linked to the Power Macintosh G4 (PCI Graphics), a model which, according to MorphOS developer jacadcaps, might not be supported, for it is a PowerMac 1,2, i.e. it is older than PowerMac 3,1. That is why interested users will most likely run into trouble if they try to install MorphOS on it, or the installation could turn out to be more difficult.

I mean, personally I?d love to see PowerMac G4 (PCI) (and also similar PowerMac G3 b/w) boards supported by MorphOS. If I wanted to buy a used PowerMac nowadays to run MorphOS on it, however, I?d definitely go for a slower AGP version, for they will probably cost, more or less, the same amount of money as PCI based PowerMacs G4 and they support more RAM; less than 40 Euros at the German ebay market incl. shipping will probably suffice. And to enjoy sound support right from the start and for people who need more speed, a faster PowerMac G4 would be a better option, if I understand the developers? postings correctly. Though these machines will also cost more money, of course.

[ Edited by g4QS_redux on 2010/8/26 16:27 ]

Quote:

I did not see a "might" in his post, I don't know what you imagine users could do about that.

@g4QS_redux

Thanks for pointing that out - I've changed the link to just he mac-history homepage.

I've also reworked it a bit to make it clearer that only AGP mdels are supported (and included a section on 'grey areas').

Glad you found the yaboot info useful, I'll try and tidy it up at some point.

@pega-1

-PowerMac FW800 dual G4@1420, 2gb ram ddr ... ready :)
-ATI 9000pro, ATI 9250 flashed, ATI 9200 flashed, ATI9800 XT/Pro flashed, ready :)
-Yaboot for MorphOS, Linux, OSX, ready :)
- money to buy the KEY of MoprhOS 2.6 ready :)
- MorphOS 2.6 when ? :) :) :)


<Afaik only the MDD/FW800 model allows "upgrading" to 2.0 but this is not really supported for MorphOS yet.>
I did not know this ... via Update of the firmware ? (infos online about this ?)


[ Edited by Divinity on 2010/8/26 19:58 ]