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No links or quotes, just some observations and deduction, all mixed together. It's all speculative of course!

The first question I ask myself is whether MorphOS development will continue. I don't see anything suggesting that the development of MorphOS is about to end or even slow down from its current pace. It has kind of come too far for being terminated permanently, and I think the developers like to do what they are doing with the OS. They want it to continue, they want it to evolve, and they want it to reach some kind of success. So no, I don't think it will stop.

So what about hardware? Back in the Commodore/Escom/Amiga International/Phase5 days, the PPC looked like a good choice. The Amiga walked in the footsteps of Apple in its 68k to PPC transition. PowerPC was backed by three large companies, back then there were also third party Mac HW companies, and the PPC platform had a great future laid out for it. When Amiga fell, MorphOS came in its place, picked up the banner, and continued the march ahead, still following this legacy. The PPC had few clouds in its sky back then. But some developer recently said something line of: "if we would have known back then what we know today, we would have chosen differently".

The 8610 was the last interesting PPC chip, and *nothing new* (of interest) will follow that one. In essence, the PPC as a platform *we* would be interested in, has died. What's left is a big pile of aging Mac hardware. They are still kind of "modern" and usable, they perform better than anything MorphOS has come in contact with before, but they are not evolving anymore, and like dead fish it flows *with* the stream in the river on its way out to the great vintage ocean. It can only go in that direction, and it's only a matter of time until it gets there.

I think it's a good thing to support the Mac PPC HW. After all, the current MorphOS is PPC, so why not make the most out of it? Unlike the Pegasos/"A1"/Sam440/etc, the Mac HW was mainstream, so it's cheap, easily obtainable, and the most powerful there is when it comes to 32-bit PPC. Cheap, powerful, and easy to get - isn't that what everyone wants? Yes of course! With the Mac Mini, PowerMac and PowerBook, the MorphOS team has covered everything from desktop to laptop, and the best and last PPC computers of their respective kinds. This should satisfy users (like Dreamcast270mhz for example) that wants PPC and nothing but PPC, and they will have plenty to choose from. But MorphOS has then gone as far as it can on PPC. PPC can't take it any further than this. It's the end of line.

So if the MorphOS team still wants to continue MorphOS's development (which I think they will), and to do so on non-vintage HW (who wants to develop a *new* OS for HW that people will consider "vintage"), then they will have to jump to a new CPU architecture. Everyone is aware of that; in a response to the comment "I only regret that again we have an annoucement about old hardware", a developer said "Fair enough, but don't whine if it ain't a PowerPC based box ;)". No new PPC HW coming, with a possible exception of a desktop MB based on the 8610, and under any circumstances, this will only delay the inevitable.

The next question is "what platform then"? Well, there are basically two options; the ARM, and the x86.

ARM is massively used in various consumer electronic devices, like mobile phones, various kinds of set top boxes, TV's, PVR's, handhelds, and soon also netbooks, tablets and such devices. Extremely energy efficient, highly integrated SoC's with specialized controllers and support/accelerator cores, at really low prices is characteristic for ARM. Personally, I think this would be a perfect match for MorphOS; a lean OS that has the small footprint and low overhead of OS's like Symbian or Palm/Garnet but at the same time offers many of the higher end features one would expect from the much bulkier desktop OS's like Vista, OSX or Linux. It's an OS that sits in between those two categories, an OS that offers the best from two worlds. IMHO, this would make it suitable for the new kind of ultra portable computer products that are evolving from the traditional mobile HW, like smartbooks, tablets, and god knows what else, products where Symbian or Palm isn't enough, and Windows and Linux is too much.

But the MorphOS team has never showed any kind of interest for this kind of hardware, neither by their words, nor by their action. Everything they have said, everything they have done, and *not* done (in regards to OS development, UI development, application development, etc) proclaims that MorphOS is a desktop OS for a limited and certain kind of computer enthusiasts in Amiga's legacy, nothing more, nothing less. And why not? It's a "hobby OS", both for the developers and the users. Who needs to think about finding a commercial purpose for the OS then? The developers likes it as a desktop, and this is also what the current users expects. And despite ARM's recent stretches upwards, way into the Intel Atom's territory, it will never become a full fledged desktop CPU. So it doesn't quite match.

What remains is simply the x86. This is the perfect desktop CPU. It comes in many flavors, ranging from very low end and cheap, to extremely high end and expensive. Nowhere are there more HW manufacturers, nowhere is the competition more cut-throat. The x86 HW is mainstream, so it's cheap, easily obtainable, and the most powerful there is. Cheap, powerful, and easy to get - isn't that what everyone wants? And it will be here forever. No need to jump architecture again, ever. So I think the answer is given. And as a more or less pointless sidenote - I recently saw Ralph Schmidt make a few comments on the latest Intel Atom chip. I know that this doesn't mean much, but IMHO taking the time to read up on a chip, form some kind of analysis/comparison of it enough to make an ever so brief comment it online, at least signals some interest and knowledge of it. I only mentioned it because I have *never* seen him make any comments whatsoever on *any* ARM chip.

I think the architecture jump will come, I think it's inevitable, and I am quite certain it will be to x86. This will secure a future HW base. They may still continue supporting PPC though, and they probably will...

@granny

MorphOS_86 would mean:
a) something like Amithlon, binary compatible to 68k/PPC, runs x86-code slower than it should (due to wrong endians)
b) something like AROS+JanusUAE, runs x86-code at full speed, but intregration with 68k/PPC apps is lacking

Nothing I'm gonna get my pants wet about ....

IMO before a CPU-switch is done there should be some sort of "QBox", read an envoirement that keeps API-similarity (not compabiltiy) to MUI and other often used ABox-APIs.
Ambient and other tools should run inside this box by default, while maintaining somesort of intregration with the ABox-side.

This QBox would have to be designed with SMP and MP in mind, should be agnostic to endians and address-size (32 or 64 bit).

Once such a box is in place and major apps are ported one would have to think about filling the gaps created by apps left behind in the ABox.

Only if thats successfull one might consider a x86-port.

(pretty much what Apple did from OS9 to Tiger-x86)

> the MorphOS team has never showed any kind of interest for this kind of hardware, neither
> by their words, nor by their action. Everything they have said, everything they have done,
> and *not* done (in regards to OS development, UI development, application development,
> etc) proclaims that MorphOS is a desktop OS for a limited and certain kind of computer
> enthusiasts in Amiga's legacy, nothing more, nothing less.

There have been words:

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=3220&forum=11#28602
https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=3217&forum=11#28754

...and following action:

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6629&forum=11#67541

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Normally, companies submits to the consumers collective perception of a fair price for a product of certain specifications, and either adapts their prices according to their offered product specifications, or they adapt their products to fit the price.

You, on the other hand, obviously wants to change/"educate" an entire population into perceiving a fixed price for a product is fair, instead of changing either the price or the product into becoming fair according to consumers perception?

What's the price of a bottle/can of cola in Western Europe? 1 Euro? Say that Coca Cola increases their price to 10 EUR per bottle/can. They want to make more money, don't they? What will happen? People will of course think it's too expensive, and buy Pepsi (or Dr Pepper, or drink water) instead, because there is no way they are going to spend 10 EUR for a single coke, no matter how rich they are! The chief of sales at Coca Cola is puzzled. Because then he see how *the very same people* that didn't want to buy his Coke bottles at 10 EUR, goes and buy a single bottle of Champagne for *100 EUR*. He stops one of them at the street outside the store, and ask "How come you are willing to spend 100 EUR on *this* bottle of beverage, when my bottles only costs a fracture of that price? You obviously have the money!"

Different products, and *different kinds* of products, has different price elasticity. Software gets "expensive" much quicker than hardware. Don't ask me why, maybe it's because HW is more tangible? I don't know. But of course HW gets expensive too! On other Amiga related websites, there has been a rather massive "education" going on for some time, about how "good priced" the Sam440 motherboard from Acube is; "Amiga has always been expensive", etc, etc. Maybe you can "educate" *some chosen individuals*, but there is a reason to why there is such a low demand for Sam, and it's not because of bad promotional efforts. Had they changed their price to become "fair", or changed their specifications to become fair to the price, I think they would have experienced a much higher demand.

There are both constants and variables in an equation like this. Better not mix them up.

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It was never my intention to insult you or anyone else, and if I did so, I apologize. I'm not even a member of pegasosforum, so please don't take it all out on me.

That said - You set whatever price you want. Of Course you do!

And as I have said many times (both here and elsewhere), there is no cheaper or better option for ones "Amiga NG" hobby than MorphOS, if you look at the entire picture. I have bought one license (at the initial discount price). I do have more MorphOS capable machines, and if and when I find the price attractive for additional licenses, I might buy more copies.

Take care!

@ Kronos

Yes, indeed there would be many, many obstacles and challenges in a x86 migration.

There are probably many ways to tackle them too. The easiest way would be to cut the cord to the past entirely, and start all over on an entirely clean slate. But that would hardly be popular...

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All that, as well as MorphOS for Efika, was Genesi initiated efforts towards this:

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=5638&forum=2&start=2

But it takes more than simple port to live and prosper on an ARM device, that was my point. Only in the UI departments there are different requirements for a palmtop, a tablet, a TV or STB. Touch screen ? la smartphones? Battery and energy management for portable devices? And there needs lots of apps as well! PVR software, DTV software, teletext software, etc for TV and STB? Bluetooth and Wifi support? The list could be made quite long, depending on what you want to achieve, and on what kind of device.

But no work at all has been done in this direction AFAIK. Instead we have seen a lot of work been put into making the traditional desktop environment "Ambient" a lot better, the traditional desktop GUI "MUI" has had great improvements, etc. All work, all improvements and all additions to MorphOS has been geared towards the traditional desktop. And I didn't say that was a bad thing. This is what the current users wants, and what the developers wants to do. And MorphOS is a proclaimed hobby desktop OS, made for fun, to have fun with. So my guess is that it's going to be the desktop CPU (x86) rather than ARM, if/when there will be an architecture migration. That was my point.

@ Kronos
A few weeks ago I thought about how to do a switch to x86 and thought of this: https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6570&forum=3#66869

In essence two boxes: One Box for legacy (i.e. in big endian mode (ppc emulated or just flipped x86 code) and one Box, very similar to ABox (probably a bit enhanced when breaking backward compability anyway) in little endian mode.
Legacy apps would get a slight speed penalty due to flipping endianness and/or 68k/ppc emualation, but new compiles for x86 little endian would get the full speed. Of couse some shared clipboard and some interoperability between the two boxes must be warranted, but I guess the new x86 box could take care about those things.

> All that [...] was Genesi initiated efforts towards this:

I'm not sure that laire's January 2005 words regarding embedded had that much to do with Genesi. Like you quoted him back then:

"I simply decided to port morphos to some embedded platform and see what develops out of this"

At least that doesn't sound like a concerted effort between him and Genesi.
And I'm also not sure that Genesi already had something like the LimePCs in mind in January 2005. They started their advanced SoC (which developed into the MPC512x in 2007) oriented blog postings not before 2006.
In conclusion, I think you see an "initiated effort" where there was no such back then yet, just laire's very own idea to make something commercially viable out of MorphOS by going embedded.

> And there needs lots of apps as well! PVR software, DTV software, teletext
> software, etc for TV and STB? [...] But no work at all has been done in this direction AFAIK.

Maybe that was supposed to be a start (you even suspected it back then):

http://www.morphos-news.de/index.php?lg=en&nid=1225&si=1

"I guess it's MorphOS software for watching DVB-S broadcasts (and DVB-C, DVB-T with additional development). Could be used for a MorphOS based STB or similar device for instance?"
https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=4412&forum=9#41089

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=4605&forum=9

@ Granny

Yes, good points you mentioned in your recent posts.
It is obvious that the Mac support ist an intermediate solution, since Apple left the PPC building.
Therefore, I am curious what the new hardware from Hyperion/Aena will be....
So, I also would like to know about the plans for the MophOS future and see some invigorating visions...

@ ASiegel

Well, the pricing thing...

True, there are companies selling software quite expensive and which don?t give any discounts. But isn?t it a bit, well, maybe arrogant to compare a niche OS like MorphOS with products of BIG companies like Quark, SAS, Adobe and others which play a big role in the industry?
Here also, no insult intended! But we should get real on this point.
And we see, that pricing and lincencing scheme are a big topic in the fora. So maybe this "whining" should not be ignored for the future benefit of the platform.


One thing I miss in almost all recent posts on MorphOS is the self consciousness and the proudness to have a great OS which in many details is ahead of the competitors. So there is a potential to become something much bigger. But I doubt that without getting more professional and without some more flexibility and strategic partners there can be much more growth atm.


[ Edited by BurnTwice on 2010/1/3 3:04 ]

Quote:

Just consider people here (including developers and users) might be more realistic about the abilities and weaknesses of an amiga-like OS.
I find it a bit naive to be over-optimistic or proud about it.


[ Edited by Fab on 2010/1/3 2:08 ]

@ Fab
Well, it?s only my opinion.
But what is the driver then to do all this?
If it?s only a fun thing without any perspective, well... we again end up in the pricing discussion.

A lot of things started small and became something big, but not without faith!
C= are dead already for a lot of years and still there are 3 (!!!) amigoid systems around. There must be something in the concept that BeOS, TOS etc. don?t have.
So why being so modest?

Your software is great work which certainly raises the usability of MorphOS and earns a lot of respect. So I think that you also see some potential, since you offer time and sweat for that OS... Well, I assume (hope) so...

@BurnTwice

I was just giving my objective view (which I think is realistic) of the situation, which would likely be the one from anyone not familiar with amiga/morphos history.
I think it's quite difficult to reach an unprepared audience, given the limitations (limited hardware support, lack of software, compatibility legacy that adds some constraints, ...) . And I don't think it's a wise move to hype things blindly to the "outside world". It could badly backfire when potential clients realize the product doesn't satisfy their expectations. But hey, i'm not a commercial nor a public relation guy, after all. Maybe i'm just very wrong. Maybe I'm not the Most Ambitious Person either. :)

I can't comment for everyone, but in my case, the motivation to develop for MorphOS is mostly to bring or enhance software I need/use, because it's my favorite system. And I certainly hope that all MorphOS efforts are appreciated and useful to other users too. :)

Regarding the pricing aspect, it was discussed a lot, and maybe it's not perfect when you have several machines, but there are not many practical alternatives either.


[ Edited by Fab on 2010/1/3 4:37 ]

While I agree x86 is a good platform for MorphOS on paper, what I have learned about using PPC hardware over x86, I'm willing to pay more, for less. Here is why:

X86 was and continues to be designed as a Brute force model Setup like this:
Memory-CPU
Video Memory-GPU

PPC and others use a more efficient approach:
Memory-CPU-GPU

Where the CPU is much more involved in the other goings on, it allows for a more efficient integration.

Furthermore, PPC CPU sales are not as fit-to-mold type deal as x86, they are far better quality processors.

The reason I would withdraw from the MorphOS scene and go to red would be that switching to X86 would force me to buy the horrible x86 HW I tried to escape. I'm hoping, by some sheer luck, the A1 X1k
will triumph in the market and secure itself a successful position. I hope this new board also has a powerful CPU, like the Titan, although i'm not sure if that complies to PowerISA 2.04.

Look at the PPC 601, iirc, it offered 2 times faster clock for clock and instruction set execution, and most PPC chips are based on the designs of it, the G5 quad CPU PowerMac even holds its own against the most powerful stock HW available.

I know, that someday the Intel domination of the market will disappear, and i will close my ears to your further predictions on the HW switch because it will never result in success.

I need to blow off some steam.....

> Titan, although i'm not sure if that complies to PowerISA 2.04.

It does.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Architecture#Power_ISA_v.2.04

@ BurnTwice

Quote:

You see, I did not reference any of these large companies you listed. I mentioned that *many* successful companies do not offer discounts to private consumers. You do not have to be 'large' to be successful. There are many smaller companies who offer no multi-license discounts for their 'expensive' niche software.

So, I really don't see how I was being arrogant in what I wrote. What I personally find arrogant is when people with either zero or rather superficial knowledge about marketing matters accuse others of being either ignorant or incompetent if they disagree with the need to offer said discounts. (This is not specifically targetted at you, just a reference to why I replied in this thread in the first place.)

@ takemehomegrandma

Quote:

??? That statement is wrong, or an uber-simplified half-truth at best. Well, it depends on how you define "normally", I admit. There are countless scenarios when this is not true at all either way.

Quote:

There is no "fair price" that is somehow "natural" or "transmitted by a higher power in to the collective consciousness of mankind". Period.

Second of all, we are talking about a niche community here, not an entire population. (Feel free to read up on market segmentation. Trying to appeal to the wants and needs of an entire society is usually considered a fool's errant nowadays.)

Quote:

In this context, I find that to be a very broad, inprecise statement.

Sure, if you look at software that can be either legally or illegally installed on multiple machines, an end user may not be overly motivated to buy a second license. Unlike hardware, you can 'clone' a number of software titles at little or no cost and with little nor work involved.

But, if you specifically look at software that is either dongled or otherwise hard to transfer and use on multiple machines, which includes computers as well as mobile devices such as phones, things look a whole lot different.

For example, I know many local businesses use dongled niche software that is essential to their daily operations. For them, buying an extra software license (and dongle) for their existing machines increases their work productivity, thus income, far more than buying yet another computer.

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The education of a target group is commonly called 'advertizing' and happens to be a trillion dollar business sector...

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Just for the record, I personally appear to have literally zero influence on the price. There is nothing I can do or say to change it.

Hi,

I have an old B&W mac G3 with a Sonnet Encore/ZIF G4(7455?) 1.0 GHz.
This platform will be supported by Mos? (I hope so!)
If not, a mac mini G4 is a good choice or is planned a support for faster G4(5) macs?

Thanks!
Bye.

Quote:

I seriously doubt your B&W Mac will get support in a foreseebale future.

Currently supported:Mac mini G4, Pegasos 1 & 2, Efika 5200B.
Supported in the next release: Power Mac G4 (not all models, see initial post of this thread and Jacadaps added a rule of thumb that maschines above 1 GHz will do)
Not confirmed but probably in the next release as well: Some G4 eMacs.
Later on probably some PowerBooks.

The Mac mini is a nice maschine and there aren't too many G4 maschines out there which are substancially faster. The Power Mac G4 can have a faster cpu, but no faster RAM, hence probably not much faster in overall performance (unless dual cpu boards will get used somehow). The 1.67 GHz Powerbook will probably be the fastest maschine. But I guess we will see support for that rather in the end of this year than in spring or summer.
And I wouldn't count on G5 - if it will get supported at all, it will be not too soon...

[ Edited by Zylesea on 2010/1/20 19:28 ]

Its something wrong for me with powermacs, are nice machines for morphos, are expandable towers but if want to change your gfx card need a mac compatible one, more expensive and difficult to find for example.

Flashing a standard PC card to a Mac version isnt hard at all. You just need to track down a Mac BIOS, boot an x86 into DOS and flash with the new ROM. Ive done it on multiple machines ranging from an old G3 all the way up to dual G5s. The Apple BTO options as well as 3rd-party caqrds are way overpriced.

(I know thers a lack of apostrophes, this keyboard cant do them for some reason. Still looking into it. :) )

@ddewbofh

Are you sure that all gfx cards are flasheable? i have a powermac G4@400mhz (not enough for mos i think) but the bad point is on the ati rage.

I'm assuming that the card has to have a mac version, but other than that it should work fine. I've only done it on AGP-cards though so I'm not sure of how it works with PCI-cards.

Any change of seeing iBook G4 1.33GHz supported? They have a mobility radeon 9500 or was it 9550 anyways it would be nice to have a laptop supported.

> They have a mobility radeon 9500 or was it 9550

Depending on model it's 9200 or 9550.

http://support.apple.com/kb/SP43
http://support.apple.com/kb/SP68

I got my MDD up and running today, running Tiger 11. I added USB 2.0 ports and here are my current specs:

Power Mac G4 MDD 1.25 Ghz
4x FW400
2x USB 1.1
6x USB 2.0 (PCI card and monitor hub)
ATi Radeon 9000 AGP
360w AcBel revB PSU
512mb ram


I'm gonna OC it to 1.5 or 1.4, its got an aluminum heatsink which barely gets hot. Mine also runs VERY quiet. One warning, there are a lot of these on eBay for sale without a PSU. Unless you want to try an ATX mod, these PSUs cost over $100 USD. I was lucky, my father works with ecyclers.