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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Velcro_SP
    Posts: 929 from 2003/7/13
    From: Universe
    |||

    [ Edited by Velcro_SP 19.04.2011 - 16:38 ]
    Pegasos2 G3, 512 megs RAM
  • »21.02.09 - 12:01
    Profile
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Velcro_SP
    Posts: 929 from 2003/7/13
    From: Universe
    |||

    [ Edited by Velcro_SP 19.04.2011 - 16:22 ]
    Pegasos2 G3, 512 megs RAM
  • »26.03.09 - 15:53
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12081 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > there is some proprietary issue with the Linux display drivers so
    > they plan to ship fit-PC2 with a previous Ubuntu version that has
    > drivers

    ...which *is* the proprietary one, incompatible with latest Ubuntu.
  • »26.03.09 - 17:29
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    rvalencia
    Posts: 1 from 2009/4/4
    Quote:


    Velcro_SP wrote:
    Quote:

    As efficient as the Atom N270 is (at 1.3-1.6Ghz the specs say 2W-4W) it is always coupled with the Intel 945GC/945GM northbridge, which has specs topping 25W in use.


    Here is a
    test results thread where the tester says his Atom 230 plus 945 GCLF chipset consumes 44 watts. Not very efficient at all.

    I know the Atom N270 is better but like you say, Neko, the biggest problem is the 945 chipset.

    I had the CherryPal logged onto IRC for about 11 days. It just runs and runs and runs. I think it could do equally well running a webserver or filesharing client though I know those activities would stress it more.



    Intel Atom netbook platform with the 945GSE Express chipset has a specified maximum TDP of 11.8 Watts.

    ASUS Eee PC 901 uses 945GSE (Calistoga) Express chipset.
    ASUS Eee PC 4G Surf (701) uses Intel 910GML (Alviso-GM) chipset and it has 10.5 Watt max TDP.


    The problem here is between the keyboard and the chair.

    [ Edited by rvalencia on 2009/4/5 7:49 ]

    [ Edited by rvalencia on 2009/4/5 8:03 ]
  • »04.04.09 - 21:45
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Velcro_SP
    Posts: 929 from 2003/7/13
    From: Universe
    |||

    [ Edited by Velcro_SP 19.04.2011 - 16:16 ]
    Pegasos2 G3, 512 megs RAM
  • »05.04.09 - 13:17
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:


    Velcro_SP wrote:
    Here's the latest marketing on the LimeBook. It's not sold yet


    Well, here is someone trying to sell it to the Amigaworld.net crowd:

    http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=28546&forum=2&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0

    :roll:
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »08.04.09 - 08:36
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Velcro_SP
    Posts: 929 from 2003/7/13
    From: Universe
    |||

    [ Edited by Velcro_SP 19.04.2011 - 16:34 ]
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  • »08.04.09 - 12:19
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    feanor
    Posts: 104 from 2009/3/20
    Quote:


    This offering is the best response of the PPC universe to this new move toward ARM, IMO.



    An underpowered 5121 at ~400Mhz is the best ppc response to a ~1.0Ghz ARM CPU with a NEON SIMD unit? Riiight... I'm -or rather I was- a powerpc advocate myself, but seriously, spec-wise, the Limebook looks like a joke at this moment. Personally, I wouldn't bet my money on it. Face it, powerpc has no future anymore, at least none that would interest desktop users.
  • »08.04.09 - 13:59
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Neko
    Posts: 301 from 2003/2/24
    From: Genesi
    Quote:

    Yeah, I guess some guy got some prototypes or sth and is selling them on eBay? Have not had a chance to read all that. IMO the OS4 Team is going to grab some glory and a lot of business if they can make a deal with THTF. I think the MorphOS strategic director ;) should multitask from the PPC Mac port for a moment to see if MorphOS can get in on that action. And Genesi ought to let bygones be bygones and get in there too.


    The problem is that the LimePC is broken by design, for all intents and purposes a stolen Genesi product proposal made it come into fruition. Except for overexcitement on the part of one executive, MorphOS was not in their interests at all, and it's no surprise that the department at Freescale that was dealing with THTF no longer exists.

    If they did a deal with Hyperion for OS4 it'd be out of desperation on their part (THTF have nothing to sell right now). I would feel very sorry for Hyperion if they did it... it'd be another Mai Logic style situation all over again. We all know who came out better for that fiasco.. Genesi, who quit while we were ahead and found a better opportunity.

    Quote:

    This offering is the best response of the PPC universe to this new move toward ARM, IMO.


    Please don't latch onto a processor line for no good reason.

    Cortex-A8 and Cortex-A9 cores are really something special. It may not run MorphOS but if you're looking to make a Netbook or thin client, PowerPC is probably the worst choice in the current market.. it would need significant cooperation from the CPU vendor and other parties to make it work, and that cooperation - because of the complete lack of excitement about the architecture these days - is not forthcoming.

    [ Edited by Neko on 2009/4/8 19:12 ]
    Matt Sealey, Genesi USA, Inc.
    Developer Relations
    Product Development Analyst
  • »08.04.09 - 19:11
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12081 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Except for overexcitement on the part of one executive, MorphOS was
    > not in their interests at all

    BBRV said on several occasions that the LimePC devices were originally to run mainly MorphOS. How does that fit your statement?
  • »08.04.09 - 23:07
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Velcro_SP
    Posts: 929 from 2003/7/13
    From: Universe
    |||


    [ Edited by Velcro_SP 19.04.2011 - 16:33 ]
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  • »08.04.09 - 23:47
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  • Just looking around
    Hammer
    Posts: 15 from 2004/7/24
    @Velcro_SP
    >You signed up for MZ to post that?

    I support ASUS.

    >At least the guy in the test report hooked up a power meter,
    The guy tested a desktop chipset.

    >you just run your mouth.
    You didn't look at the fine details. RMclock tool also shows the power consumption.

    Must I post ASUS W3J with it's mobile 945 chipset wattage?

    "Mobile Intel? 945GSE Express Chipset"

    http://ark.intel.com/chipset.aspx?familyID=35553

    Note the "Max TDP 6 Watts"

    Ordering items
    1. 82945GSE Graphics and Memory Controller Hub (GMCH) FCBGA998 A3 6 Watts
    2. 82801GBM I/O Controller Hub (ICH7M) PBGA652 B1 3.3 Watts
    Total: 9.3Watts

    Take note of "Valid Processor Combinations"
    "Intel? Atom? Processor N270 (512K Cache, 1.60 GHz, 533 MHz FSB)"

    Now for ASUS. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASUS_Eee_PC
    Note "Intel 910GML series" and "Intel 945GSE" for ASUS EeePC.

    Try again Velcro_SP.



    [ Edited by Hammer on 2009/4/9 3:39 ]
  • »09.04.09 - 03:36
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    feanor
    Posts: 104 from 2009/3/20
    Quote:


    feanor, you need to start experiencing the beauty of resource efficiency. There is more to enjoyable computing than "power PoWeR, POWER!" Smartly written software on a lean OS on a modest processor can beat bloat on an MHz monster running Vista or pick-a-sluggish Linux.



    please, spare me the lecture about resource efficiency. I wrote libfreevec and am expanding it to a full-blown libc. In fact, my work is *exactly* on software optimization, getting old enterprise software and making it orders of magnitude faster and more efficient. I've optimized several algorithms for AltiVec/SSE and working on ARM NEON now. I think I know pretty well what resource efficiency is.

    The fact remains that 5121e being power efficient does not make it usable (esp. by the vast majority of users who are used to Vista or "sluggish" Linux. Btw, Linux can actually be very fast and efficient, you just skip KDE/Gnome.

    But still, you're missing the point. My argument was not about efficiency, it was about using PowerPC and the 5121 in particular. However efficient LimeBook is, it just won't compete with the Atom and even the ARM-based netbooks. Face it, PowerPC is out of the picture.

    [ Edited by feanor on 2009/4/9 11:43 ]
  • »09.04.09 - 08:17
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    Butterfly
    robjoh
    Posts: 79 from 2004/11/25
    From: Sweden
    Intressting topic I must say

    Quote:


    The fact remains that 5121e is power efficient does not make it usable (esp. by the vast majority of users who are used to Vista or "sluggish" Linux. Btw, Linux can actually be very fast and efficient, you just skip KDE/Gnome.



    I agree calling Linux sluggish is not really true, just look at distros such as Damn Small Linux or vectorlinux if you want speed.

    Quote:


    But still, you're missing the point. My argument was not about efficiency, it was about using PowerPC and the 5121 in particular. However efficient LimeBook is, it just won't compete with the Atom and even the ARM-based netbooks. Face it, PowerPC is out of the picture.

    Some questions that I find intressting.
    I not very good at CPUs but is there any other ARM CPU than Freescales i.MX515 that is in the range for a netbook?

    What makes ARM intressting instead of going with Intel Atom?

    Is anyone using ARM in a computer today (as the main CPU?)?

    [ Edited by robjoh on 2009/4/9 9:32 ]
  • »09.04.09 - 09:13
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Velcro_SP
    Posts: 929 from 2003/7/13
    From: Universe
    |||

    [ Edited by Velcro_SP 19.04.2011 - 16:13 ]
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  • »09.04.09 - 12:38
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  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Velcro_SP
    Posts: 929 from 2003/7/13
    From: Universe
    |||

    [ Edited by Velcro_SP 19.04.2011 - 16:15 ]
    Pegasos2 G3, 512 megs RAM
  • »09.04.09 - 12:50
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    Hammer
    Posts: 15 from 2004/7/24
    @Velcro_SP

    To quote Neko
    Quote:


    As efficient as the Atom N270 is (at 1.3-1.6Ghz the specs say 2W-4W) it is always coupled with the Intel 945GC/945GM northbridge, which has specs topping 25W in use.

    You cannot use the Atom without that bridge, and Intel are not moving Atom to the "integrated northbridge" model


    Intel "Pineview" is an Atom based SOC i.e. it includes a single-channel DDR2 memory controller and an integrated graphics core.

    Intel Moorestown is comprised of a system on a chip, code-named ?Lincroft?, which integrates the 45nm processor, graphics, memory controller and video encode/decode onto a single chip and an I/O hub codenamed ?Langwell?, which supports a range of I/O ports to connect with wireless, storage, and display components in addition to incorporating several board level functions.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcN_9vZ7j20
    Intel Moorestown based MID demo.

    Quote:


    they are pushing for their new high end quad-core chips (possibly because it would increase the die size way past their target, and die size directly impacts cost).


    Intel has the advantages
    1. economic of scale.
    2. process technology.
    3. large "cash at bank".


    Quote:


    Then of course on any design, you have to add RAM power costs; this can be anything from 3W to 10W depending on how much you have.

    Compare an equivalent PowerPC - the MPC8610 or MPC8640D at the lower clock rates - and you are looking at chips which do all the Atom and 945 combination do, in a single chip package. This makes layout easier, which makes PCBs easier to design and smaller, and of course even the dual-core PowerPC chip uses less power with zero power management than the Atom and 945.

    Of course the MPC5121e does better, but it's nowhere near as good as CherryPal say it is. Not by a long shot.

    To contrast the i.MX515 uses a lot less than the MPC5121e plus it has highly aggressive power management as all ARM chips do.


    The context was;
    1. MX515 is a netbook (processor).
    2. Intel 945GC/945GM northbridge = 25watts
    3. "all the Atom and 945 combination"

    Neko's generalisation would fail for ASUS EeePC i.e. it doesn't use 945GC/945GM and MX515 is a netbook.

    Quote:


    We were talking about watts in net-tops.


    MX515(1) is a netbook (processor) hence ASUS EeePC.

    1. Refer to http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=i.MX515


    [ Edited by Hammer on 2009/4/9 14:33 ]

    [ Edited by Hammer on 2009/4/9 14:36 ]
  • »09.04.09 - 13:34
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    feanor
    Posts: 104 from 2009/3/20
    Quote:

    MX515 is a netbook


    i.MX515 is a CPU. Read the URL you mention first, it's right there in the title.

    "Multimedia Applications Processor"
  • »09.04.09 - 13:53
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    feanor
    Posts: 104 from 2009/3/20
    Quote:


    I don't cling to any processor family really, but neither do I agree with those who think that "Power PC is out of the picture" or others who seem to *want* it gone.



    I seem to have been misunderstood. I used to be *extremely* fond of PowerPC and esp. AltiVec. I really think that it's probably one of the best designed CPUs. But would I advise anyone to spend their money on the CPU now? No, not a chance! Not unless IBM and Freescale decide to actually spend some real money to extend/update/promote the architecture. IBM is not interested in anything but the mainframe (and services), and Freescale is mostly focused in the automotive/embedded industry. AltiVec is pretty much dead, the e600 is also dead, there is no e700 coming, 512x CPUs most probably won't have updates, Cell R&D has stopped (and PS3 will probably be the last PPC-powered Sony console, dunno about Xbox yet), only QorIQ and Power7, which are extremely more expensive than a similarly specced x86 or ARM CPU. So, please tell me again, why should I advise someone to spend $300-400 for a ppc-based limebook, when he could spend less money on an Atom netbook and even less money for an ARM netbook?

    Believe me, I'd *love* a 8610-based netbook, in fact I have such a CPU already and it absolutely rocks! But if the big players decide to ditch the technology -which is theirs- what can we do? It's not really open "hardware" and even it were, how would one produce it without huge pockets? I'm just being realistic here.
  • »09.04.09 - 14:07
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    Hammer
    Posts: 15 from 2004/7/24
    @feanor

    As Intel supports Linux (i.e. Moblin, Intel's mobile linux distro), Microsoft hires more chip engineers.
  • »09.04.09 - 14:19
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12081 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Cell R&D has stopped

    Source?

    > only QorIQ and Power7

    I don't paint it quite as black as you do:

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=11&topic_id=6268&start=40#62827
  • »09.04.09 - 17:41
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  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    feanor
    Posts: 104 from 2009/3/20
    Quote:


    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > Cell R&D has stopped

    Source?



    Well, it's been all over the net that PS4 will (most likely) use the existing Cell BE cpu (probably scaled down), Google's your friend. I've read in quite a few online financial journals, that with the huge loss Sony suffered from the Cell, it would gladly switch to another cost-saving cpu at an instant, if it could. For this reason it handed production to Toshiba. Toshiba is also in the big red, with big number of layoffs and huge losses. Again, it's trivial to find the articles on google. I read this stuff on a daily basis on a great number of sites, there is no reason to bookmark this. Btw, I tend to provide sources and bibliography when I do real research not casual forum postings. Asking for sources in a casual discussion (which this is, right?) might be taken as both insulting and snobbish. Accept the fact that there may exist people that may know more, because they just care more.

    Btw, IBM's next-gen supercomputer Sequoia, will NOT be based on Cell, guess what that means (hey, here's a source: http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/26599.wss). This is IBM's press release. No word on Cell. A few months back it would be packed with Cell references.

    Ok, perhaps "stopped" is too harsh a word. Perhaps I should have used "has slowed down". Which in technology terms is pretty much the same.

    Quote:


    I don't paint it quite as black as you do:

    https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=11&topic_id=6268&start=40#62827


    The colour doesn't really matter much :) Show me a cheap powerpc-based *available now* with semi-modern specs and I'll buy it and shut up (well, save the PS3, which isn't really a desktop machine nor is it meant for development). For now, the best one can get is a powerstation or a 2nd hand G5. Performance/power wise, these lose greatly to pretty much every modern Intel/AMD cpu, in pretty much every area. Personally, as I said I'd be more than happy with a 8610 or 864xD box at a sane price (even a bit more expensive than competitive products, I wouldn't mind). But that's not happening, and it's not my ship anyway, I'll find sth else to take joy in programming.

    [ Edited by feanor on 2009/4/9 23:21 ]

    [ Edited by feanor on 2009/4/9 23:22 ]
  • »09.04.09 - 21:20
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12081 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > it's been all over the net that PS4 will (most likely) use the
    > existing Cell BE cpu (probably scaled down)

    With "scaled down", you mean the reported die-shrink from 90 to 45 nm? And the reported addition of 4 SPEs to the already existing ones? And the reported (slight) increase in clock frequency?
    Furthermore, PS4 is a computer system while the Cell is a CPU. We were talking about the Cell CPU itself. PS4 not using a better Cell than PS3 (or even no Cell at all) wouldn't have to mean anything regarding Cell R&D itself. There might be other purposes for a better Cell than a Sony's gaming device. The existing PowerXCell 8i is proof of that.
    Btw, how would PS4 most likely using Cell fit your previous statement that "PS3 will probably be the last PPC-powered Sony console"?

    > Google's your friend.

    It is, indeed, and has always been a good one :-P

    > Sony [...] would gladly switch to another cost-saving cpu at an
    > instant, if it could. For this reason it handed production to Toshiba.

    You say it yourself: Sony is out of the picture regarding Cell R&D (and production). So how exactly does Cell R&D depend on Sony and their PS4 when this task is up to only IBM and Toshiba now?

    > it's trivial to find the articles on google.

    Yes, and I did the day they were published.

    > there is no reason to bookmark this.

    Yes, and I never expected you to. After all, "it's trivial to find the articles on google" for you to provide me with the sources I asked you for.

    > Asking for sources in a casual discussion (which this is, right?)
    > might be taken as both insulting and snobbish.

    Pure nonsense. You claim something, I ask you to back up that claim. That's how discussion works and has alway been. I think nobody is obliged to accept a factual statement about a third party just like that. After all, there must have been something that led you to your perception. Or do you really mean I've to take any statement from yours for real just because it's you stating it?
    Btw, in case you took it down the wrong pipe: I didn't expext you to provide sources right with your statement like you would be obliged to in academics. But you should be able to provide them after being asked for (just what I did) if you want to be taken seriously (by me, at least).

    > Accept the fact that there may exist people that may know more,
    > because they just care more.

    I very much do. And that's very much the reason I may ask them to back up their claims. Because they may know more because they care more.

    > IBM's next-gen supercomputer Sequoia, will NOT be based on Cell,
    > guess what that means [...] A few months back it would be packed
    > with Cell references.

    That's still no proof that "Cell R&D has stopped", rather a mild indication.

    > Ok, perhaps "stopped" is too harsh a word. Perhaps I should have
    > used "has slowed down".

    That's (almost) funny. First you're trying to lecture me like it's obvious that your claim is fact, only to eventually step back and admit it's not.
    So let's be blunt: Contrary to your previous claim which I asked for sources for, there's currently no proof that "Cell R&D has stopped". The sources you afterwards indirectly refered to rather indicate that the PS4's Cell will indeed be a result of further R&D.

    > Show me a cheap powerpc-based *available now* with semi-modern specs

    Why should I? I didn't claim there was such thing.
    1. You and I were talking about Power Architecture CPUs, not systems.
    2. You and I were talking about Power Architecture CPUs in general, not just desktop suiting ones.
    3. You and I were talking about *coming* Power Architecture CPUs, not already available ones.
    Contrary to your claim, QorIQ and POWER7 are *not* the only Power Architecture CPUs supposed to come (see my link to my previous statement).

    > For now [...] one can get [...] a powerstation

    Currently "out of stock" according to Fixstars's website.

    > these lose greatly to pretty much every modern Intel/AMD cpu

    I see no sense in comparing whole systems to bare CPUs. But at least you finally got (almost) on topic again :-P
  • »09.04.09 - 23:59
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12081 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > is there any other ARM CPU than Freescales i.MX515 that is in the
    > range for a netbook?

    Qualcomm Snapdragon (upcoming):
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snapdragon_(processor)
    http://www.qualcomm.com/products_services/chipsets/snapdragon.html
    http://www.qctconnect.com/products/snapdragon.html

    TI OMAP3:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Instruments_OMAP#OMAP3
    http://www.ti.com/omap3
    http://www.ti.com/omap35x

    TI OMAP4 (upcoming):
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Instruments_OMAP#OMAP4
    http://www.ti.com/omap4

    nVidia Tegra (upcoming):
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nvidia_Tegra
    http://www.nvidia.com/tegra

    ST-Ericsson Cortex-A9 implementation (upcoming):
    http://www.google.com/search?q=st-ericsson+cortex-a9
    Edit: It's the NovaThor U8500 (renamed from Nomadik STn8500):
    http://www.stericsson.com/platforms/U8500.jsp

    > Is anyone using ARM in a computer today (as the main CPU?)?

    Castle Technology in the Iyonix PC (until September 2008):
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iyonix_PC
    http://www.iyonix.com

    Advantage Six in the A9Home:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A9Home
    http://www.thea9.info
    http://www.advantage6.com/products/A9home.html

    TI and Digi-Key in the Beagle Board:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beagle_Board
    http://beagleboard.org
  • »10.04.09 - 05:20
    Profile