Also in my pov porting Mos to the Mac family is the better direction.
They are easy to find in 2nd hand market, chaper & more powerful than Sam.Yes, the Sam is a nice piece of hw, but the cost of the bare motherboard is 2x than a coplete Mac system!
And then, also in my POV, when I can run MorphOS , OSX and a Linux flavour on my computer all natively, I can live for sure without OS4
Hola

The only problem I have with porting to Mac is that you only have used hardware to choose from and I'm not much for buying used computer hardware. Don't get me wrong, all my Macs I use now are PowerPC based and I have held off on getting an Intel Mac until Apple gets the bugs worked out (BTW, I use an Intel Mac at work and I think Intel Macs are not as reliable as their PPC brethren).

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Looks like it's what you did with the Pegasos 2 & Efika...

What's the difference ?

Leo,

There's not much difference to me. It's nice to see new hw products and we can only hope they sell well, but at that scale, business is always quite risky.

However, pegasos and efika designers were known from their previous amiga products, which could give more trust regarding hw reliability (even though we still had this sad articia story, which was handled correctly by bplan/genesi, unlike eyetech). Acube seems to be new company, I haven't seen any previous similar product from them, so we can just legitimately wonder if the hardware is reliable (I'm not saying it isn't).

And finally, Pegasos 2 was quite well spec'ed (when it was designed) compared to existing Macs models from 2003, and also quite cheap. Something which can't be said about current SAM model.

[ Edited by Fab on 2008/12/8 1:17 ]

@Leo

The Efika is/was an e300 evaluation/development platform. It got here in 2006 (already delayed a lot, it was first showed in summer 2005). It was never intended as an end in itself but a means to an end; the aim was set for what we now know as "LimePC", the many devices (handheld, mobile and stationary) using CPU's from the MobileGT Roadmap. *This* was the goal. The Efika/5200B was only a way to get things going while waiting for the new CPU's to get here. The sponsored development program was an important piece of that jigsaw puzzle. The SW for the 5200B Efika was supposed to be easily transfered to the new CPU's that would follow later down the road. Developers got hooked up, partnerships was entered, including with the Chinese THTF (then important aspects of the CPU design (coherency) suddenly (and unexpectedly) changed and the Chinese partners turned up to be a-holes, but that's a different matter).

That's the difference between the Efika and the Sam. The Efika was never an end in itself, but a means to an end, the end would be something enormous. That the MorphOS team never managed to deliver until just a few months ago is a different matter, but it doesn't matter now.

The Pegasos was a project of a different time, a time where the PPC still was considered an option for desktop computers (albeit a bit lower in performance compared to x86 CPU's). But the Articia issues delayed the thing for years, until there was no real market for it any more, other than in small communities like this one (which was further destroyed by Eyetech&Co entering the scene). The Pegasos 2 got here just when the Thendic crashed and burned, which certainly didn't help. All in all, when the Pegasos project was started, things looked different, and you shouldn't forget the "marriage" between the HW/OS. However, the last hope for a PPC Desktop computer kind of disappeared when Apple went intel. The 8610 and 8640 could be the last processors of its kind, who knows.

The Sam is a "Pegasos" (ie a desktop computer) with an "Efika's" performance (but lacking the bigger goal that was supposed to follow in the Efika roadmap), today in 2008, at a price that nobody will pay.

Maybe they have produced as many as 100 boards. I doubt they have made 200. *Definitely* not 1000.

The Mac Mini however, is a desktop computer (albeit a little limited in expandability), its cheap, available everywhere as second hand, it's almost 2x as fast as the Pegasos 2 in certain areas, and *ahelluvalot* faster than the Sam.

Since I am more or less convinced that MorpOS will show up for MM, I am already looking on Ebay to score a cheap Macmini ... if you spend 300 Euro on one, you have one with dvd, upgraded memory, and so on .... compared to 1000 euro for a complete SAM as seen on some websites .... the choice is easy.



[ Edited by Oepabakkes on 2008/12/8 11:42 ]

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Or as *some* say: "The Amiga has never beena cheap hobby!"

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If I can buy a new, slow, expensive system, or a proven, much faster and also cheaper second hand system (especially if a laptop will be an option in the future, afaik, there are no plans for SAM based laptops), that decision is a no brainer for me.

You are now refering to that OS with a 4 in it's name ?

And yes they are used, second hand, discontinued and god knows what else I don't care about ... it will always be a step forward for MorphOSteam and one step ahead against the competition.

I am sure a lot of people are now a happy OS4.1 and Sam owner ... but I am sure they would have been even happier when it was a Macmini with OS4.1 ... who doesn't want cheaper and faster?

Untill further notice it will be the fastest nextgen Amigacompatible.

And now you can start nagging about that PS3-port again

I go for MacMini! Let's say i buy a MacMini and after a week or so it breaks and i can only throw it away, i get another Mini and i spend less money, then buying one Sam Board.

Even when your macmini breaks ... I think it wouldn't be hard to find spare parts at reasonable cost if not a complete machine.

Broken Efika... throw it away. Broken Pegasos ... it might be repairable ...but at what cost ?

Broken SAM ... as long as it is in his first year, you might get a new one when it's broken... but after that time ? throw it away ...

I still have a ?A1 somewhere with a broken G3 ... barely used and it costed me 800 Euro's back then. I am not going that road a second time.

@ guruman

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Just for clarification, the term "offer" implies a serious intent to do a port which is misleading. There were purely informational talks with no actual negotiations whatsoever.

> MobileGT Roadmap

New version (page 4) from FTF China with info on the MPC5125, recently mentioned by BBRV.

Also interesting: page 45 (bottom)

On spot as always, Andreas. I think you don't have a single post here that is not informative. Keep'em coming!

That document you refer contains the most complete public information about freescale's MPC512x project, including a roadmap. Which makes me have this bitter feelings again: It does look so good indeed... What a missed opportunity.

Genesi's latest warning was that key people for this project left freescale, and the whole thing has a very uncertain future.

Of course, I'd like so much not to believe it...

are we talking about SAM or about limepc-things inhere because I am not really following anymore.

> Genesi's latest warning was that key people for this project left
> freescale

The people who "handled the business and marketing", not the developers; and "were let go", not left. Now the business and marketing is handled by the business and marketing team responsible for embedded parts.

> the whole thing has a very uncertain future.

See my reference to page 45. It has its future in the markets it's aimed at: Automotive and industrial.

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Clarification taken (I never explicitedly implyed anything different, though). I guess the informal talks were enough to put off ACube, which means their interest was not so big anyway

Kind regards,
Andrea

[ Edited by guruman on 2008/12/11 23:25 ]

guruman:
I suppose you don't know the sum involved?

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Do not say stupid things...

1) Mac Minis have not expansion possibilities...

Sam 440 can mount fully expansions...

2) MacMinis are dead and sooner or later Apple will cease any support for repairing old G3 and G4....

Sam440 is a living product and it is fully supported by its manufacturers

And finally in Italy on Ikir Sector AmigaNews site we discussed this fact, and people from Acube revealed that they contacted Morphos Team and MorphOS team will had developed MorphOS for Samantha but they asked ridiculus high price for the develoment and want full amount of money for any copy of MorphOS sold with Samantha and not just the major percentage of it, as any normal OS sold with any normal Hardware...

http://amiga.ikirsector.it/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11475&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

It just seemed that MorphOS team wants all the cake and not just the big amount of that, as any normal OS developing renevues.

Well, it is worst for them.

If they had sold MorphOS with Samantha they had had increased noteworthy the number of users, and sure they could had lowered the prices of the OS for us that own Pegasos machines so we users will had be happy and MOS Team will had been wealthier...

It continues the stupid politics of prices of morphOS team...

First an high price for MOS 2.0/2.1

Then high price for porting MOS on Samantha

Do they enter the real world and finally undrestood that they missed another opportunity just for their greed?

good to hear that they've decided not to support the Sam. That would've been a waste of time. Lets concentrate on Mac Mini and iBook, Powerbook.
The Sam is a dead product. It will never satisfy the needs of todays MorphOS users. That thing is even worse than a peg1. you cant even use a AGP graphicsboard.

@Raf_MegaByte

If the team doesn't have any interest in porting it to SAM, why would they do it for free (no, a couple additional sales doesn't matter)? Besides, what you call a ridiculous price is probably comparable to what Genesi was asked for the efika port. It didn't seem so ridiculous to Genesi it seems. So I wonder if Acube were really serious about their request. Greed from Acube, probably.

And I still wonder why ACube should get a part of the OS price too. Don't they already have their slice of cake when selling the board? As I see it, and considering MorphOS team targets cheaper and better specced hardware, it would already be a favor from MorphOS team to port MorphOS to SAM, and they should still give more money to Acube? Looks Acube are greedy, once again.

There, some feedback for your rant. :)

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So a Mac Mini and Powerbook instead of Sam is stupid...



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The Mac Mini does have pretty much everything a normal user will need, and it comes at *a fraction* of the cost of a Sam. And the Sam may have a spare PCI slot, but AFAIK all controllers, *including graphics*(!) (and also including that single PCI slot) sits on the same PCI bus/bandwidth.

The Sam can't compare to Mac Mini by far, not in any way of measure if you look at the whole picture, they are not even in the same league.

Even a Pegasos G3 @ 600MHz is probably faster than a Sam, and has better expansion options and can be purchased second hand really cheap in comparison. The Pegasos2 G4 runs circles around the Sam, and the Mac Mini is said to be close to 2x as fast as the Pegasos in certain areas. Do the math! For heavens sake, the Sam is an *Efika class* CPU, sold at a workstation price tag!

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AFAIK, apple still gives support to G4's, and I'm sure local service shops can repair the stuff even after Apple quits. The Mac Mini is a mass produced, well known hardware. Unlike the obscure Sam. Which is now *to be replaced* by the "Sam Flex" AFAIK (meaning its life cycle in practice is already over), so I think your point is moot. Everything stops at some point, and I'd dare to call the support from a tiny newcomer a lot more uncertain than Apple.

Heck, buy a Mac Mini, and if it crash and burns - throw it in the trasch bin and buy a second one, and you would still have got away cheaper than buying a Sam.

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You may think what you want about MorphOS team's licensing conditions and business sense, and I'm not going to argue to you about that. But AFAIK they asked for about the same deal and condition as the Efika port, or did I misunderstand that?

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Not really.

I'm sure the Sam rocked the world over in OS4 land, but that's simply because all they have had previously was crappy Articia hardware or ancient vintage Amigas. *Whatever* hardware would shine in comparison to that! But to everyone else but OS4 nerds, the Sam has absolutely nothing to offer, especially not at that price. MorphOS users has/will have so much better options.

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The only ones buying the Sam (how many? 100 people? 200?) are the ones prepared to pay just about anything in order to get a copy of *OS4* running, and they aren't exactly MorphOS customers. Mac Mini offers so much more for so much less money. Doing a MorphOS port for for the Sam wouldn't be worthwhile, and focusing on that instead of Mac Mini would be insane.

@takemehomegrandma
I 100% agrre with you.
MorphOS team made the right choice.
Not to mention that we could use also OSX in dual boot with MorphOS and that's really not so bad for a sistem n* times faster than a Sam at a price of about 350Euros!

Ciao

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Mac Mini has everything a normal user will need so does the Sam.

The magic spell is USB 2.0 and both platforms support it...

With USB 2.0 you can connect any modern device and with a reasonable transfer data amount.

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Nice try...


If you were honest you had pointed the fact that the lifecycle of MacMini, Pegasos and Pegasos II, and Efika I are already over...

There were plenty of official pages stated that sellings of Efika 1 are over...

Not to mention that Apple could decided to cease the support for MacMinis G4 in any moment, and support just the Dual Core model in order to force its users to jump to new Intel processors...

While batches of obscure Samanthas are already shipping...

And its repairing service it is made by loyal serious Amiga firm who already demonstrated they supported its users (Amiga users)...

Again the Sam Flex is yet to come... Sam440 EP is still shipping (they announced another batch of mainboards just one week ago [see news on the main page of Amigaworld.net])...

In the meantime, where are Efika II and Pegasos III based on PPC 8610 that were promised 2 years ago?

We still are waiting for it...

And remember:

The problem of Amiga and Amiga Like platforms is THE LACK OF MONEY...

Without money you cannot develop further platforms...

And I doubt that ACube neither Genesi have enough money to be competitive on nowadays markets...

If there will be no investor in Amiga or in MorphOS, then I seriously doubt our platforms will survive this 2008/2009 global crisis...

Remember people do not spit on Samantha...

It is being sold mainly to AmigaOS core users and I saw on on pages of Amigaworld a good number of developers to purchase it...

(almost 6 or 7 developers active in AmigaOS camp)

Do you spot the fact that until the end of 2006 and middle of 2007 there were released more programs for MorphOS than on AmigaOS while in the last year the releases are more in AmigaOS 4.0 camp?

With MorphOS running on Samantha, these developers could had purchased also MorphOS together with AOS 4.1 and we had had extended the userbase to more Amiga developers...

The more, the merrier...

This fact will had increased notheworthy the number of software available for MorphOS and when MorphOS for MacMini will had been released, then the new users had had found more programs, and more appealing software available for MorphOS, and then more more reasons to purchase it...

MorphOS need any good developer to be competitive... even just a single good programmer/coder who will start portings of new software...

And you will not find good Amiga programmers from former MacMini users, but just people who already knows what was Amiga, and some very very curious people who want to check what MorphOS could offer to them.

To renew the Amiga we need young motivated people who will became capable to learn what is the spirit of Amiga and learn how to program Amiga and MorphOS software.

And regarding userbase, you said that you doubt that Samantha sold more than 100 or 200 machines...

Well remember that if only if 100 or 150 people had choosen Samantha with MorphOS instead than AOS 4.1 we had had increased userbase of just 100 or 150 people, and yes... they were a few, but sure we had had increased the userbase, and it had been increased with people that know the Amiga and apprecciate it and its features.

No MorphOS available for Samantha? No any new user... Bye bye money, and bye bye ready cash to develop further MorphOS releases (for MacMinis or any other platform)...

And even the EXPENSIVE price of MorphOS could had dropped of 3 or 5 euro, or it could had dropped even more if the userbase had increased more than 150 new users...

Now the choice of MOSTeam is to sell MorphOS available for MacMinis, and it is sure a choice of selling for el-cheapo USED HARDWARE, no matter for the price...

Hope the best lucky chance for them.

It could be a right choice but it is always AGAIN aimed at Amiga users and former Amiga users...

People using MacMinis with MacOS could choose MorphOS only if MorphOS will offer the same things that MacOS offers nowadays or even more features.

And I strongly doubt that it could offer more...

Finally remember that G4 MacMinis are all USED hardware and you have no warranty in what conditions you purchased any item...

I purchased my Pegasos II G3 usd item, and in these days I discovered that it seems the former owner jammed internally the serial port in some ways...

Gonna make some tests to be sure about it...

I hope that those who will purchase second hand Mac Minis will have better lucky...

[ Edited by Raf_MegaByte on 2008/12/18 6:38 ]

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I remember the times when the same was said about EyeTech and A1 boards...

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You know, that's a really good point.

That's exactly the reason, why we should concentrate on compatible mass produced hardware, that was "developed for free" (from our point of view), namely Mac Mini and even more importantly, Apple laptops.

I really wonder how much the end product would cost, if ACube developed a custom laptop...

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I don't think that porting an OS to obscure platform to get max. 6-7 new developers would be worth it... Probably would be cheaper to buy all of them Mac Minis


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And how many of the new users would rather pick Sam440 instead of Mac Mini, if they had a choice?

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Porting MorphOS to Sam440? Bye bye money. I doubt that purchases of MorphOS for Sam440 would EVER be close to the porting cost.

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If I have a choice of buying an expensive slow hardware, or way faster second hand hardware (2 units just in case, for the price of one Sam440), I'd sure pick the second choice, and so would many others.

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Well obviously those aren't the target audience...

On the other hand, an owner of Mac Mini PPC (who is using MacOS X) would be even less likely to buy a Sam440 just to try MorphOS, so what exactly was your point anyway?

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And what guarantees that Sam440 won't have same kind of "warranty" as A1's have now?

Also remember that you could also get a "backup unit" for the price of Sam440.