MorphZone

G4 vs. G5

geit

# 45
MorphOS Developer

Posts: 1031 from 2004/9/23

Quote:

Jim wrote:

In the US, free standing panels are no longer common.

Yeah, Trump already stated to put them onto the new mexican wall, so the US can sell power to mexico. (which is not working anyway)

And the mexicans can unmount and steal the solar panels since the wall is unsecured and sell them to the US as proper replacment panels for their wall. :)

Sounds like a win/win situation :)
»07.09.17 - 09:31

ASiegel

# 46
Posts: 1370 from 2003/2/15

From: Central Europe

Quote:

amigadave wrote:
Quote:

ASiegel wrote:
As you will also know, there are places in the US without any building code restrictions.

Not every solar set up is the same and not everybody puts panels on their home's roof.

Where is this location within the US without any building code restrictions?

Idaho County, for example. Also, Delta County, Colorado, specifically mention on their county website that there are no building permits or inspections required in any unincorporated areas.

The first time I heard about regions with either no building codes or no enforcement of such codes was a discussion of rural areas in Alaska, by the way.

Quote:

Unless it is some kind of military, or other government property/building, that can claim to be exempt from local county and/or city code requirements, I can't think of any property within the US that is not part of a county jurisdiction, and therefore, subject to the code restrictions of that particular county.

Well, see above. There is also native American land that has a very special legal status (and its own local tribal codes and statues).

Quote:

The International Building Code has been adopted by every state in the USA, as far as I can remember.

Apparently, not all counties, especially remote rural ones, adopted their state's building codes.

Quote:

Electric codes are not so uniformly adopted.

Even areas with either lax or no requirements for building permits and / or inspections tend to require inspections of electrical installations and septic systems.

This does seem reasonable considering bad electrical installations can easily lead to fires and cause immense damage to an entire region as well as potentially kill people and animals on both neighbouring and distant properties. Likewise, septic systems can explode (methane) and poison.

Quote:

It has been just over 10 years since I was forced to retire early, due to my back problems and failed back surgeries, so I am sure some things have changed slightly, plus there were very few solar electric array installations in the small resort town where I worked, prior to my retirement.

These codes tend to change frequently, indeed. Staying fully informed is almost impossible unless you are paid to do so.
»07.09.17 - 16:26

Jim

# 47
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28

From: Delaware, USA

Quote:

ASiegel wrote:

Idaho County, for example. Also, Delta County, Colorado, specifically mention on their county website that there are no building permits or inspections required in any unincorporated areas.

The first time I heard about regions with either no building codes or no enforcement of such codes was a discussion of rural areas in Alaska, by the way.

Hmm, I never heard of that, interesting.

Alaska, of course, makes perfect sense since everything is so remote.
But Colorado, I was unaware of.

As I mentioned before, there are no code restrictions on some temporary structures in my state (Delaware).
But the size is limited in the northern two counties to under 64 square feet (although in our southern most counties the limit is over three times that).
I've often thought that in order to limit inspection hassles, placing the panels on an outbuilding or carport might be a practical idea.
One of our local community colleges just put a half megawatt array above their parking lot.
"Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
»07.09.17 - 21:30

takemehomegrandma

# 48
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24

Quote:

Jim wrote:

Better to consider replacing the G5 with an X5000.

"tlosm" over at AW.net, owner of both a X5000/20 and a X5000/40, disagree with you (though his G5 reference is the PCIe Quad 970MP):

"as i say, x5000 gave the feeling of a ferrari on a country road."

"performances on x5000 are much slower everyware"

"g5 quad better performance machine is from 2005 and prize 500 usd max... x5000 complete system x5000/20 2350€"

"for os4 is the best but just because there is nothing better ... if is intention for use x5000 for everyday use like i did with linux is better use the g5... because performances of heavy os like is linux on x5000 are not so good ..."

"i know the [G5] fpu is near the double in performances compared the x5000.
plus p5020/40 miss some fpu instructions that are emulated."

"because the machine can be ok if released in 2006"

"no i buy x5000 for use linux ppc , the e5500 was born for linux use ... os4 is a guest for this architecture and this crap machine dont do good the things that have suppose to do.

wrong hardware topographic
issue with fpdma on sata
overheating in smp
ram performances like a ddr400 on a Pentium 4 2001
pcie 16x with real performances of a 4x
issue with read and writing on the bus
Integer performances like a core2 (in 2017)
fpu performances like a machine of 2002

can i continue the list of the problems ..."

We have known for years that the X5000 would *not* be an advance forward regarding performance, more like a sideways migration from the X1000, which in turn was surprisingly weak compared to the 2004/2005 Mac HW we already had for MorphOS.

Overwhelmingly (and surprisingly so) poor performance and weird malfunctions seems to be a key value of the "AmigaOne" brand. Every single one has had such issues.

Soon comes the "AmigaOne A1222" that *we know* is crippled. Only remains to see by how much, and what surprises it will bring in this regard.

BTW Jim, have you put your money where your mouth is yet in regard to the X5000? You have preached the marvels and wonders of the X5000, and how you will buy it for, what... two years now? Surely there must be one sitting on your desk right now?
MorphOS is Amiga done right!
MorphOS NG will be AROS done right!
»07.09.17 - 22:42

Andreas_Wolf

# 49
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 12078 from 2003/5/22

From: Germany

> wrong hardware topographic

What does that mean?

> pcie 16x with real performances of a 4x

Considering that only 4 lanes are connected, this shouldn't come as a surprise.
»07.09.17 - 23:29

Jim

# 50
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28

From: Delaware, USA

Quote:

takemehomegrandma wrote:

...Soon comes the "AmigaOne A1222" that *we know* is crippled. Only remains to see by how much, and what surprises it will bring in this regard.

BTW Jim, have you put your money where your mouth is yet in regard to the X5000? You have preached the marvels and wonders of the X5000, and how you will buy it for, what... two years now? Surely there must be one sitting on your desk right now?

Should I be in a hurry to make that purchase when MorphOS isn't available for it?
I'm not interested in OS4.
And I already have Linux running on a Quad 2.5 GHz G5, but that won't run MorphOS, and the video card support isn't quite as good as the X5000 (but I am trying to improve on that).

Of all that complaints you've listed, only the cooling issue is troubling to me. Aeon should have done a better job with that.
But I have a third party cooling fan/heatsink sitting here that is due to be shipped to Bigfoot to solve that problem on his machine.

As the X5000 is a considerable improvement over G4 level hardware, the fact that it doesn't have parity with the G5 doesn't worry me.

Oh, and in addition, I'm actually waiting for the X5000/40, btw.

Nothing in your post negates the savings in electricity I mentioned. So while your opinion of the X5000 is duly noted, it doesn't change my regard.

You ARE right about the A1222 though, it's a fiasco.
"Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
»08.09.17 - 14:03

Andreas_Wolf

# 51
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 12078 from 2003/5/22

From: Germany

> I already have Linux running on a Quad 2.5 GHz G5, [...]
> and the video card support isn't quite as good as the X5000

Video card support of Linux on X5000 is better than video card support of Linux on PowerMac G5?
»08.09.17 - 16:41

takemehomegrandma

# 52
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24

Quote:

Andreas_Wolf wrote:
> wrong hardware topographic

What does that mean?

No idea. Maybe something Italian?

Quote:

> pcie 16x with real performances of a 4x

Considering that only 4 lanes are connected, this shouldn't come as a surprise.

I know this, since I have read the product description of the chip. I think the confusion (with the following disappointment) comes from the fact that all AeonKit marketing material and product description speaks about PCIe 16x -period-, not at all mentioning the fact that the only "PCIe 16x"-thing about it, is the shape and size of the socket. This might mislead (surprise, surprise) people to believe that they will actually get a PCIe 16x enabled motherboard/system.

[ Edited by takemehomegrandma 08.09.2017 - 21:02 ]
MorphOS is Amiga done right!
MorphOS NG will be AROS done right!
»08.09.17 - 19:54

Jim

# 53
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28

From: Delaware, USA

Quote:

Andreas_Wolf wrote:
> I already have Linux running on a Quad 2.5 GHz G5, [...]
> and the video card support isn't quite as good as the X5000

Video card support of Linux on X5000 is better than video card support of Linux on PowerMac G5?

Yes, getting Radeon HD cards working on PCI-E G5 has been a real struggle. I got some pointers from Spectre660 and sorted it out, but one thing that Aeon has done is encourage the development of Linux distros specific to their products.
Of course, neither the X5000 or the G5 support GCN cards under Linux (at least not at the moment), but the 5000 and 6000 series cards work well.
Looking at our future support, I might downgrade to a Radeon HD 4890 if I buy an X5000, in order to have overlay support.
I'd rather not, as the 5000s are a significant improvement, but it is what it is.
"Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
»08.09.17 - 20:52

Andreas_Wolf

# 54
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 12078 from 2003/5/22

From: Germany

> all AeonKit marketing material and product description speaks about PCIe 16x -period-,
> not at all mentioning the fact that the only "PCIe 16x"-thing about it, is the shape and
> size of the socket.

There's been at least one product description in an A-Eon press release (11/2016, linked to from there) that mentions the fact.
»08.09.17 - 23:27

Andreas_Wolf

# 55
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 12078 from 2003/5/22

From: Germany

> neither the X5000 or the G5 support GCN cards under Linux

I think they are supported in everything but 3D.
»09.09.17 - 00:01

marmotta

# 56
Caterpillar

Posts: 32 from 2012/6/11

This is the x5000 topographic, from tlosm. He cant register here because website registration issue

X5000 Topographic
»09.09.17 - 09:07

Andreas_Wolf

# 57
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 12078 from 2003/5/22

From: Germany

>>> wrong hardware topographic

>> What does that mean?

> X5000 Topographic

Thanks. And what's wrong with this topology?
»09.09.17 - 14:16

tlosmx

# 58
Butterfly

Posts: 80 from 2017/9/10

finally here! i dont know why this website dont like hotmail or yahoo.com

ok letz explain the topo.
first the two socs (?) i hope are the sosc not sure have the same id and float around someware
the first controller is is the 16x aka 4x pcie is where is the gpu
the second controller have all the bridge put on it ... with bridge over a bridge over a bridge over a bridge...
the third controller pcie controller they forget to use.

The L3 cache is a fake cache it is used only for net packet and not for data... this was explained by the mantainer of the uboot
it is called corenet.

by the way the cpu have good integer compared the G5 970MP but overall deskop performances are choppy, slow expecially after some times. i think becasue havy ram granulation.

plus steam report only max 2gb/s for 5020 and 4 gb/s for 5040 where the ddr3 1600 is capable on other hardware to run at 22 Gb/s

fastest gpu dont help too much compared slowed one i test various NI board with not good big differences in result.

NOTE:All is about linux ... i dont consider amigaos because i cant compare amigaos with faster powerpc hw.
for sure now the faster cpu is the e5500 for amigaos.

only mos guys can compare morphos under X5000 and G5 if sow differences in better or worst performances.

sorry my english is not perfect.
Im waithing the day when mos will be available for G5 Quad and RadeonHD :P

[ Edited by tlosmx 10.09.2017 - 12:53 ]
»10.09.17 - 12:08

ASiegel

# 59
Posts: 1370 from 2003/2/15

From: Central Europe

Quote:

tlosmx wrote:
finally here! i dont know why this website dont like hotmail or yahoo.com

Because before blocking those, 90+ percent of all spam registrations used either. (Yahoo was especially bad and heaviliy abused by what appeared to be Chinese spam bots.)

Considering that well below one percent of valid MorphZone users used Yahoo! or Hotmail email accounts, this seemed like a no-brainer.
»10.09.17 - 12:43

tlosmx

# 60
Butterfly

Posts: 80 from 2017/9/10

now lets explain why i buy the x5000/40
before i had a pegasos2 1266mhz ... for me the best machine made for an amigan because linux compatible with mol-kvm, morphos, amigaos.

take the x5000/40, (the 3 october 2016 was to me) because on paper it specs will made my g5 quad goes in pension and will gave me linux, amigaos and morphos togheter again on the same machine.
but this was not true ... from very beginning i report to aeon the bed video gpu performances ... result they change the document specs of x5000.

g5 quad continue is the best powerpc desktop machine made .

about
Quote:

Video card support of Linux on X5000 is better than video card support of Linux on PowerMac G5?

on linux ppc you can have all the board available on linux x86 ... only mesa are problematic because endianess in SI sourcess.
the same gpus work on G5 and on x5000 but better on g5.
i tested on my quad radeonhd 4.xxx,5.xxx,6.xxx an 7.xxxx, r230 all are working . only r7 is not running but can be only a firmware issue not a pcie compatibility issue.

[ Edited by tlosmx 10.09.2017 - 13:07 ]
»10.09.17 - 13:00

Jim

# 61
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28

From: Delaware, USA

Quote:

tlosmx wrote:..Im waiting the day when mos will be available for G5 Quad and RadeonHD :P

A lot of people have asked for that. I have one, the cooling system is a bit of a PITA, but it makes a good Linux platform.
As Kronos pointed out in the TalosII thread, the quad G5 would make a good base for the next version of MorphOS.

BUT, many of the developers think we are supporting too many systems already.
"Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
»10.09.17 - 13:34

tlosmx

# 62
Butterfly

Posts: 80 from 2017/9/10

Quote:

BUT, many of the developers think we are supporting too many systems already.

true ... but the quad will the best one
»10.09.17 - 14:00

Jim

# 63
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28

From: Delaware, USA

That is what everyone said when then 2.7 GHz AGP models we're supported, and the slower G5s became more popular because they were air cooled.
I'd feel more comfortable with the quad if there was an easy way to convert it to air cooling.

[ Edited by Jim 10.09.2017 - 12:17 ]
"Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
»10.09.17 - 14:23

Andreas_Wolf

# 64
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 12078 from 2003/5/22

From: Germany

>>> X5000 Topographic

>> Thanks. And what's wrong with this topology?

> first the two socs (?) i hope are the sosc not sure have the same id and float around
> someware

There's only one SoC on the Cyrus/X5000.

> the second controller have all the bridge put on it ...
> with bridge over a bridge over a bridge over a bridge...

Actually, it's one PCIe-PCIe bridge with another PCIe-PCI bridge (for the PCI slots) attached to it.

http://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=11&topic_id=11137&start=712

> the third controller pcie controller they forget to use.

I doubt Varisys simply forgot to use more than two PCIe controllers, but believe there is a good reason for using only two of them. It might be connected to the fact that the board has been designed for three different SoCs (P3041, P5020, P5040) which are not 100% pin-compatible, so the actual board design represents the lowest common denominator between the three SoCs.

http://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=7001&start=893

Considering the fact that the P3041 version was abandoned anyway, they might as well have selected the P5021 instead of the P5020, as the P5021 and the P5040 are 100% pin-compatible.

> The L3 cache is a fake cache it is used only for net packet and not for data...

Interesting. I didn't know that the CoreNet L3 cache can't be used also like a normal L3 cache. But even then this has nothing to do with the board design, don't you think?

> overall deskop performances are choppy, slow expecially after some times.
> i think becasue havy ram granulation.

Do you think this is a board design issue?

> steam report only max 2gb/s for 5020 and 4 gb/s for 5040

Do you think this is a board design issue?
»10.09.17 - 14:34

jPV

# 65
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 2026 from 2003/2/24

From: po-RNO

One annoyance with support for dual core and quad core machines is that they came with NVIDIA graphic cards, and it can be somehow difficult to find compatible PCIe cards... in any case it's difficult for users to buy complete setups which would work "out of the box". But of course they would be nice machines to be supported otherwise... faster gfx bus etc.
The wiki based MorphOS Library - Your starting point for MorphOS
jPV's MorphOS pages
»10.09.17 - 14:35

Andreas_Wolf

# 66
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 12078 from 2003/5/22

From: Germany

> from very beginning i report to aeon the bed video gpu performances ...
> result they change the document specs of x5000.

Interesting. Which specs in particular did they change after your reporting?

> g5 quad continue is the best powerpc desktop machine made .

Together with the TerraSoft/Fixstars/YDL PowerStation, I guess :-)

>> Video card support of Linux on X5000 is better than video card support of
>> Linux on PowerMac G5?

> the same gpus work on G5 and on x5000 but better on g5.

Isn't that a contradiction to what Jim said in comments #50 and #53? :-)

> on my quad [...] only r7 is not running

Isn't that a contradiction to what you just said yourself? :-)
»10.09.17 - 14:51

tlosmx

# 67
Butterfly

Posts: 80 from 2017/9/10

Quote:

Andreas_Wolf wrote:
>>> X5000 Topographic

>> Thanks. And what's wrong with this topology?

> first the two socs (?) i hope are the sosc not sure have the same id and float around
> someware

There's only one SoC on the Cyrus/X5000.

> the second controller have all the bridge put on it ...
> with bridge over a bridge over a bridge over a bridge...

Actually, it's one PCIe-PCIe bridge with another PCIe-PCI bridge (for the PCI slots) attached to it.

http://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=11&topic_id=11137&start=712

> the third controller pcie controller they forget to use.

I doubt Varisys simply forgot to use more than two PCIe controllers, but believe there is a good reason for using only two of them. It might be connected to the fact that the board has been designed for three different SoCs (P3041, P5020, P5040) which are not 100% pin-compatible, so the actual board design represents the lowest common denominator between the three SoCs.

http://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=7001&start=893

Considering the fact that the P3041 version was abandoned anyway, they might as well have selected the P5021 instead of the P5020, as the P5021 and the P5040 are 100% pin-compatible.

> The L3 cache is a fake cache it is used only for net packet and not for data...

Interesting. I didn't know that the CoreNet L3 cache can't be used also like a normal L3 cache. But even then this has nothing to do with the board design, don't you think?

> overall deskop performances are choppy, slow expecially after some times.
> i think becasue havy ram granulation.

Do you think this is a board design issue?

> steam report only max 2gb/s for 5020 and 4 gb/s for 5040

Do you think this is a board design issue?

oh mama to much question.
>There's only one SoC on the Cyrus/X5000.
... bad because it made the topo more strange than before,

>one PCIe-PCIe bridge with another PCIe-PCI bridge
ok that can be normal
... but on the topo you see more bridges in the schemas are the squares.
one is the extra bridge of the cmi board (and is normal) many others none.
im try to reproduce the board scheme on qemu and it refuse to do something like that.
it continue make a "normal topo" shot

>Interesting. I didn't know that the CoreNet L3 cache can't be used also like a normal L3 cache. But even then this has nothing to do with the board design, don't you think?
yes it can be used as fast sdram too. but i was referring to the topo scheme.

>Do you think this is a board design issue?
can be it or bad kernel integrations, low ram speed bottle neck.
ram speed so slow... i hope is only bad uboot integration... bur my fear is the e5500 true speed is ddr 200 at true 400MTs data rate.
»10.09.17 - 15:34

tlosmx

# 68
Butterfly

Posts: 80 from 2017/9/10

> result they change the document specs of x5000.

Interesting. Which specs in particular did they change after your reporting?
made more better the pcie 16x description

> g5 quad continue is the best powerpc desktop machine made .

Together with the TerraSoft/Fixstars/YDL PowerStation, I guess
I was thinking this machine are more for server use :P

>Isn't that a contradiction to what you just said yourself?

>>only r7 is not running but can be only a firmware issue not a pcie compatibility issue.
where?
»10.09.17 - 15:39

Andreas_Wolf

# 69
Yokemate of Keyboards

Posts: 12078 from 2003/5/22

From: Germany

>> There's only one SoC on the Cyrus/X5000.

> ... bad because it made the topo more strange than before

Why? I don't see where the lstopo output shows more than one SoC.

> im try to reproduce the board scheme on qemu and it refuse to do something like that.

So you say that the Cyrus board topology is wrong because QEMU can't recreate it? Wouldn't it rather mean that there's something wrong with QEMU if it can't recreate the topology of an existing board?

>>> The L3 cache is a fake cache it is used only for net packet and not for data...

>> I didn't know that the CoreNet L3 cache can't be used also like a normal L3 cache.

> yes it can be used as fast sdram too.

Just like it's supposed to be, right? Everything fine then.

>> this has nothing to do with the board design, don't you think?

> i was referring to the topo scheme.

What's wrong with the L3 cache in the lstopo output?

> my fear is the e5500 true speed is ddr 200 at true 400MTs data rate.

The memory controller is not part of the e5500 core. It's part of the SoC's 'uncore'. Also, 400 MHz and 800 MT/s is minimum spec for DDR3.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DDR3_SDRAM#JEDEC_standard_modules
»10.09.17 - 21:35