Crowdfunding for TALOS Workstation
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Everblue
    Posts: 154 from 2004/1/6
    We are looking into 1800 Euro for a complete system? That's nearly X5000 territory.
  • »21.11.18 - 07:31
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10535 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > That's nearly X5000 territory.

    Yes, but coming with:
    - CPU: 5 to 10 times faster per core (estimated and depending on task)
    - PCIe: two generations ahead
    - RAM: one generation ahead
    - SATA: one generation ahead, two ports more
    - USB: one generation ahead
    - GbE: two ports more
  • »21.11.18 - 08:40
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  • ASiegel
    Posts: 1135 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    Quote:

    Everblue wrote:
    We are looking into 1800 Euro for a complete system? That's nearly X5000 territory.

    Hardware being sold at around the 2000 EUR mark is not unusual per se, though. The entry level Apple iMac Pro with an 8-core Xeon CPU starts at 5000 EUR, for instance.

    The question is whether you are content with the offered performance level and available software options.
  • »21.11.18 - 08:51
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Everblue
    Posts: 154 from 2004/1/6
    "The question is whether you are content with the offered performance level and available software options."

    That is exactly the point. Despite I would love to use both for everyday tasks neither MorphOS nor AmigaOS have the necessary software. I appreciate that these are hobbyist operating systems, but €2000+/- is too much for most people. Case in point, despite having a low-spec CPU and the wrong FPU many people are still looking forward for the A1222 just because of the affordable price point.
  • »21.11.18 - 12:29
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Everblue
    Posts: 154 from 2004/1/6
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > That's nearly X5000 territory.

    Yes, but coming with:
    - CPU: 5 to 10 times faster per core (estimated and depending on task)
    - PCIe: two generations ahead
    - RAM: one generation ahead
    - SATA: one generation ahead, two ports more
    - USB: one generation ahead
    - GbE: two ports more


    Very true. But which current software available on MorphOS would make full use of these specs? Same thing with the Amiga OS running on the X5000.
  • »21.11.18 - 12:32
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10535 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> - CPU: 5 to 10 times faster per core (estimated and depending on task)
    >> - PCIe: two generations ahead
    >> - RAM: one generation ahead
    >> - SATA: one generation ahead, two ports more
    >> - USB: one generation ahead
    >> - GbE: two ports more

    > which current software available on MorphOS would make
    > full use of these specs?

    These use cases come to my mind right away:

    CPU: web browsing, HD video decoding, emulation
    SATA: connection of more than 2 devices
  • »21.11.18 - 13:30
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    bennymee
    Posts: 92 from 2004/4/14
    From: Netherlands
    Quote:

    Everblue wrote:
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > That's nearly X5000 territory.

    Yes, but coming with:
    - CPU: 5 to 10 times faster per core (estimated and depending on task)
    - PCIe: two generations ahead
    - RAM: one generation ahead
    - SATA: one generation ahead, two ports more
    - USB: one generation ahead
    - GbE: two ports more


    Very true. But which current software available on MorphOS would make full use of these specs? Same thing with the Amiga OS running on the X5000.



    Every browser.
  • »21.11.18 - 13:59
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    Posts: 68 from 2009/5/6
    Sooo your sales pitch is we should all buy a $2000 machine for browsing?

    Sorry folks, but this is purely hobbyist land here, so the prices can't be that exorbitant if you wish to survive. As stated earlier, the whole reason everyone is excited about the Tabor is the fact that it is finally a piece of OS4 hardware with a somewhat reasonable price.

    I might be interested if all of the abovementioned features were fully utilized with MorphOS but they aren't. And even if they were and this machine would be awesome, there still needs to be more software available before people would start looking at it as a replacement for Windows, MAC or Linux..

    A reasonably priced machine that can be used for OS4 and MorphOS is really the way to go, as it would open a market of new users to the fold. Then maybe developers would start developing apps and then more powerful machines could be built and sold.

    Trying to sell the pinnacle machine first is a recipe for failure..
    Small steps and coordination is what is needed.. (And asinine litgation to stop for Gods sake)
    "Pride is a poor substitute for intelligence." Quote from Rambo...
  • »21.11.18 - 14:30
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Everblue
    Posts: 154 from 2004/1/6
    Quote:

    bennymee wrote:
    Quote:

    Everblue wrote:
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > That's nearly X5000 territory.

    Yes, but coming with:
    - CPU: 5 to 10 times faster per core (estimated and depending on task)
    - PCIe: two generations ahead
    - RAM: one generation ahead
    - SATA: one generation ahead, two ports more
    - USB: one generation ahead
    - GbE: two ports more


    Very true. But which current software available on MorphOS would make full use of these specs? Same thing with the Amiga OS running on the X5000.



    Every browser.




    Come on, I need a 2000 euro machine to use a browser?
  • »21.11.18 - 14:49
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10535 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I need a 2000 euro machine to use a browser?

    No, but the result of using a demanding website or web app on a POWER9-based system vs. using it on an X5000 or even slower system (without JavaScript JIT in both cases) may surprise you. Price of Blackbird and the X5000 will be similar, but performance will be worlds apart.
  • »21.11.18 - 15:33
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Everblue
    Posts: 154 from 2004/1/6
    Yes I understand that there is big difference but the price is still exorbitant. Hopefully these will be popular enough for the price to come down or MorphOS x86 to happen.
  • »21.11.18 - 16:03
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10535 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > there still needs to be more software available before people would
    > start looking at it as a replacement for Windows, MAC or Linux..

    I don't see a possible MorphOS port to Blackbird as a means to make people switch from Windows, macOS or Linux to MorphOS, but simply as a nice opportunity for people who want to run MorphOS anyway and who are ready to pay such price for a MorphOS system (with the possibility to also run Linux) but want a better price-performance ratio than offered by the X5000. I'm fully aware that this is a very small group of people :-)

    > Trying to sell the pinnacle machine first is a recipe for failure..

    You mean Raptor should have made/sold Blackbird first and Talos II after this?

    > asinine litgation to stop for Gods sake

    Fortunately this doesn't really harm MorphOS :-)
  • »21.11.18 - 17:13
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10535 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Hopefully these will be popular enough for [...] MorphOS x86 to happen.

    ;-)
  • »21.11.18 - 17:23
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    Posts: 68 from 2009/5/6
    OK then I guess I don't understand what is the purpose of this project then? Currently MorphOS runs on 2nd hat MAC equipment and this as far as I can see serves the purpose well. What is the incentive to buy a $2000 machine for MorphOS when we can use it on a $200 used MAC?

    And for the record I am not trying to be difficult, I truly don't understand the re4asoning behind this proposed shift.

    Is the intent to have a specific hardware platform for MorphOS so it could be sold much like the original Amiga?

    And if that is the idea then why not port it to x86 and ensure cheaper hardware moving forward?
    "Pride is a poor substitute for intelligence." Quote from Rambo...
  • »21.11.18 - 17:48
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Everblue
    Posts: 154 from 2004/1/6
    From why I understand there will be an x86 port. What I am not sure about is if this will be a shift or a fork, with team MorphOS supporting any new PPC hardware that becomes available (such as this particular board or the PPC laptop in the other thread). It is for them to decide I guess :)

    I guess that MorphOS increased accessibility once ported to x86 hardware which is cheaply available off the shelf would theoretically mean a sudden increase of users, both from the Amiga world and non. Some of said users might be developers and would be interested to bring new software and drivers to the OS creating a snowball effect. Hopefully.

    Naive question, if (or when) MorphOS comes to x86 will it be easier/faster to port open source software which exists for Windows/Linux for the same CPU?

    [ Edited by Everblue 21.11.2018 - 18:41 ]
  • »21.11.18 - 18:34
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10535 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > what is the purpose of this project then?

    Which project do you mean?

    > Currently MorphOS runs on 2nd hat MAC equipment and this as far
    > as I can see serves the purpose well. What is the incentive to buy a
    > $2000 machine for MorphOS when we can use it on a $200 used MAC?
    > [...] I truly don't understand the re4asoning behind this proposed shift.

    I just had my second MorphOS Mac die on me from decay. These machines are simply not built for a guaranteed lifespan of significantly more than a decade. I've been entertaining the idea to purchase a new X5000 as replacement for running MorphOS, but indeed for the price it is too much of a sidegrade instead of an upgrade from the PowerMac G5, and it lacks AltiVec. The Blackbird would change this dramatically. I'd buy it with MorphOS in an instant. Note that this is just my very own reasoning/incentive and I can fully understand everyone who'd never buy a $2000 machine for running MorphOS (and Linux).

    > Is the intent to have a specific hardware platform for MorphOS
    > so it could be sold much like the original Amiga?

    This isn't my intent at least. I can't speak for others, though.

    > why not port it to x86 and ensure cheaper hardware moving forward?

    An x84-64/AMD64 port has been communicated as the longterm plan since 2011 at least. The state of this endeavour is still completely unknown to the public. A port to POWER9-based Blackbird would require way less effort, I think. In addition, the existing MorphOS software as well as the MorphOS-compatible m68k software would continue to run on Blackbird.
  • »21.11.18 - 19:22
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  • Butterfly
    Butterfly
    Posts: 68 from 2009/5/6
    Thanks for the info, that explains things a bit..

    Also, I apologize for the fact that I am getting my currencies mixed up and if I re-read the thread correctly this time we are looking at $875 not $2000... Still higher than the Tabor but getting closer anyway. That certainly makes things more palatable..

    I think I may download the latest and greatest MorphOS and check it out again as it has been some time since I played with it on my Mini.

    Now if they can utilize more features on that board I might be interested..
    Dang it more hardware to spend my money on...

    Not enough cash to go around.
    :O)
    "Pride is a poor substitute for intelligence." Quote from Rambo...
  • »21.11.18 - 19:34
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10535 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > [...] or a fork, with team MorphOS supporting any new PPC hardware
    > that becomes available

    A1222/Tabor will remain unsupported either way, I guess ;-)

    > if (or when) MorphOS comes to x86 will it be easier/faster to port
    > open source software which exists for Windows/Linux for the same CPU?

    Yes, it would. Existing ASM and SIMD optimizations could be used directly, and source-code dependency on little endian byte order wouldn't be a problem.
  • »21.11.18 - 19:51
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10535 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > if I re-read the thread correctly this time we are looking at $875 not $2000...

    Full system comparable to X5000 would still amount to no less than about $1800.
  • »21.11.18 - 20:21
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Zylesea
    Posts: 1897 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:

    outlawal2 schrieb:
    OK then I guess I don't understand what is the purpose of this project then? Currently MorphOS runs on 2nd hat MAC equipment and this as far as I can see serves the purpose well. What is the incentive to buy a $2000 machine for MorphOS when we can use it on a $200 used MAC?

    And for the record I am not trying to be difficult, I truly don't understand the re4asoning behind this proposed shift.

    Is the intent to have a specific hardware platform for MorphOS so it could be sold much like the original Amiga?

    And if that is the idea then why not port it to x86 and ensure cheaper hardware moving forward?



    There seem to be some misunderstanding or confusion about TALOS. TALOS is no MorphOS related project. Its a very powerful hardware that comes totally independent of MorphOS (from a company that may have never heard about MorphOS) but that *might* become a possibele tarfget hardware for MorphOS to run on because it ises a POWER cpu.

    The TALOS is a rather expensive computer, but it is also a very powerful computer. Given MorphOS would run on oit, I guess only few ppl would buy it purely for MorphOS, but if you in need of a really powerful system anyway and happen to like MorphOS, then the TALOS may be a pretty fitting solution.
    A powerful hardware for highly demanding tasks hosting Linux (or some BSD) and at the ame time the by far most powerful device for MorphOS. If MorphOS supports teh TALOS I may fall into that category.
    It's important to note that Power9 is very powerfl: a x64 comuter of that power is not a pocket mony machine, too. The price is not too far off. But of course not everryone needs such a beast.

    Bottom line: This computer is expensive but powerful and (yet) there is no MorphOS support announced for TALOS. TALOS itself has nothing to do with MorphOS or any other Amigaish OS.

    [ Editiert durch Zylesea 21.11.2018 - 20:30 ]
    --
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  • »21.11.18 - 20:27
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10535 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > TALOS [...] *might* become a possibele tarfget hardware for MorphOS to run
    > on because it ises a POWER cpu. [...] Given MorphOS would run on oit, I guess
    > only few ppl would buy it purely for MorphOS, but if you in need of a really
    > powerful system anyway and happen to like MorphOS, then the TALOS may
    > be a pretty fitting solution. [...] If MorphOS supports teh TALOS I may fall into
    > that category. [...] (yet) there is no MorphOS support announced for TALOS.

    They could skip the Talos II and go directly for Blackbird for all I care :-)
  • »21.11.18 - 20:51
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Everblue
    Posts: 154 from 2004/1/6
    Quote:

    outlawal2 wrote:
    Thanks for the info, that explains things a bit..

    Also, I apologize for the fact that I am getting my currencies mixed up and if I re-read the thread correctly this time we are looking at $875 not $2000... Still higher than the Tabor but getting closer anyway. That certainly makes things more palatable..

    I think I may download the latest and greatest MorphOS and check it out again as it has been some time since I played with it on my Mini.

    Now if they can utilize more features on that board I might be interested..
    Dang it more hardware to spend my money on...

    Not enough cash to go around.
    :O)



    875 bucks is just for the motherboard without the CPU. So yes, 2000 in total for a complete system sounds just about right.
  • »21.11.18 - 21:40
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Everblue
    Posts: 154 from 2004/1/6
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > if (or when) MorphOS comes to x86 will it be easier/faster to port
    > open source software which exists for Windows/Linux for the same CPU?

    Yes, it would. Existing ASM and SIMD optimizations could be used directly, and source-code dependency on little endian byte order wouldn't be a problem.


    Cool, that's a huge plus for an x86 switch.
  • »21.11.18 - 21:42
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4856 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Everblue wrote:
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > if (or when) MorphOS comes to x86 will it be easier/faster to port
    > open source software which exists for Windows/Linux for the same CPU?

    Yes, it would. Existing ASM and SIMD optimizations could be used directly, and source-code dependency on little endian byte order wouldn't be a problem.


    Cool, that's a huge plus for an x86 switch.



    Well, it does play into the hands of Intel, so I'm not that happy.
    And what other functionality would an X64 port give us that would increase, not decrease, our userbase?

    While legacy Amiga applications could be run under a UAE port, it won't run legacy PPC code easily, and I do not run many 68K programs.

    Power9 does solve the endian issues by being bi-endian, and not locking us into an unlicensable ISA seems worthwhile.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »21.11.18 - 23:22
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