Crowdfunding for TALOS Workstation
  • ASiegel
    Posts: 1370 from 2003/2/15
    From: Central Europe
    @ redrumloa

    They might not have bothered with a custom design if this had been available when the X5000 was being conceptualized, which happened several years ago.

    That being said, when you compare prices you need to be aware that this "special developer system" is NOT a consumer product. The X5000 is available with all the necessary certifications and normal product warranty as mandated in North America or Europe. On the other hand, the Raptor system is spefically sold without regard for certifications or compliance guarantuees and you are expected to figure out on your own if it is legal or not to operate this hardware wherever you live. Also, they categorically refuse to accept product returns although being able to return items purchased on the internet is a legal consumer right in the European Union, and so on and so forth.

    If you want to sell a computer to consumers, there is quite a bit of administrative overhead involved nowadays, which does increase costs.
  • »31.08.18 - 15:27
    Profile
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1424 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    Kronos wrote:
    Only before you add TheNameTax.



    Using a term you like...

    Well they could take the Eyetech route by taking the reference board and "adding stupid" to it, then double the price. Slap a Boing sticker on it and suddenly it is "teh true Amiga".

    Quote:

    If the get a reduced footprint lownoise fully useable board out for around 1000€ we can talk, till then it's ancient G4 based Macs for me....


    And it is G5s for me! Then again if Talos was shown to bench in single core performance than my G5 2.7 (and MorphOS supported it of course), I might be willing to drop the cash for the asking price. There is no way it is as bad of a power hog as my G5 2.7.
  • »31.08.18 - 15:34
    Profile
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1424 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    ASiegel wrote:
    @ redrumloa

    They might not have bothered with a custom design if this had been available when the X5000 was being conceptualized, which happened several years ago.


    I guess you have a point.

    Quote:


    That being said, when you compare prices you need to be aware that this "special developer system" is NOT a consumer product. The X5000 is available with all the necessary certifications and normal product warranty as mandated in North America or Europe. On the other hand, the Raptor system is spefically sold without regard for certifications or compliance guarantuees and you are expected to figure out on your own if it is legal or not to operate this hardware wherever you live. Also, they categorically refuse to accept product returns although being able to return items purchased on the internet is a legal consumer right in the European Union, and so on and so forth.

    If you want to sell a computer to consumers, there is quite a bit of administrative overhead involved nowadays, which does increase costs.


    OK that makes sense. Then again don't developer systems usually have support built into the price? I do remember now someone mentioning the lack of certifications. That's a bit, odd...

    This is an interesting computer, if it ever gets a true consumer version. I still prefer forging ahead with X86-64, but this could be an interesting stop gap. Not that it will get looked at as such, just thinking out loud.
  • »31.08.18 - 15:39
    Profile
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    Update:

    Hinting at a single-socket microATX board to be presented at OpenPOWER Summit Europe in early October:

    https://twitter.com/RaptorCompSys/status/1034901944014438400


    Neat, they have been dropping hints about this for awhile.
    And now we get a photo of a matx system.
    Wonder what the price will be.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »31.08.18 - 15:46
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12073 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > if Talos was shown to bench in single core performance than
    > my G5 2.7 (and MorphOS supported it of course), I might be
    > willing to drop the cash for the asking price.

    I'm sure that the POWER9 absolutely destroys the PPC970, also in single-core/thread performance.
  • »31.08.18 - 17:07
    Profile
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > if Talos was shown to bench in single core performance than
    > my G5 2.7 (and MorphOS supported it of course), I might be
    > willing to drop the cash for the asking price.

    I'm sure that the POWER9 absolutely destroys the PPC970, also in single-core/thread performance.


    Yes, it should be remarkable. And with support for four times the number of threads (quad G5 @ four thread with the quad Power 9 @ sixteen threads).
    Better memory, much later gen. PCIe slots, faster hard drive interfaces...
    All we need is support for baremetal KVM.

    Frankly, I'd prefer this to our announced X64 shift.
    This would offer us better legacy compatibility.
    In fact, even if no NG OS is ever ported to this platform, I might go this way anyway and finally dump Windows in favor of Linux.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »31.08.18 - 22:20
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12073 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > All we need is support for baremetal KVM.

    ...or even better, MorphOS ported to the Talos II :-)
  • »01.09.18 - 10:09
    Profile
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > All we need is support for baremetal KVM.

    ...or even better, MorphOS ported to the Talos II :-)


    Yeah, that would do it. ;-)
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »01.09.18 - 15:48
    Profile
  • Caterpillar
    Caterpillar
    xilinder
    Posts: 39 from 2018/2/1
    From: USA
    Cool stuff. If I had ever had Mac stuff I would give it a go.

    Right now I'm running Debian and Fedora le. Haven't figured out what I'm doing wrong with getting Big endian installed, but I'm working on it.

    Someone mentioned the noise factor. There isn't one.
    As soon as the T2 starts to boot the OS the CPU, case, and graphics card fans drop to low speed and are quiet. And that is for the three cards I have tried, HD4580, HD6850, and WX7100. Just to bring them up to 1/3 speed I had to run 6 youtube 1080p videos while playing a AVI movie off a dvd while having Timidity playing a list of tunes. No slowdowns/skipping,,,,just smooth.

    I'm still playing around with OS's trying to decide which one to settle on for development. It's all fun.
  • »02.09.18 - 20:03
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12073 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > If I had ever had Mac stuff I would give it a go.

    What would be cool, also in the context of this website, is running MorphOS on the virtualized G4 Mac.
  • »03.09.18 - 09:10
    Profile
  • Caterpillar
    Caterpillar
    xilinder
    Posts: 39 from 2018/2/1
    From: USA
    Yes, cool indeed.

    Right now it's digging around in the hardware and then messing about with kernels. It's going to be awhile before getting around to much else.
  • »03.09.18 - 13:54
    Profile
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    redrumloa
    Posts: 1424 from 2003/4/13
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:

    What would be cool, also in the context of this website, is running MorphOS on the virtualized G4 Mac.


    Has Bigfoot ever mentioned Talos either way? As in, is the chance of a MorphOS native port anywhere north of 0%?
  • »03.09.18 - 21:36
    Profile
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    redrumloa wrote:
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:

    What would be cool, also in the context of this website, is running MorphOS on the virtualized G4 Mac.


    Has Bigfoot ever mentioned Talos either way? As in, is the chance of a MorphOS native port anywhere north of 0%?


    I've discussed Raptor Enginnering and it's projects with Mark a few times.
    I don't think he'd be adverse to receiving one of their boards.

    That being said, just like to PowerMac 11,2 beta port, having a developer experiment with new hardware is not the same as official support.

    Mark has also mentioned an interest in the T2080 laptop.

    But...one developer, with an obvious passion for hardware is what it is, ONE developer.

    MorphOS is the product of a community of developers, and official support is something that would require the support of more than one developer.

    If the T2080 laptop reaches production, we should buy one for Mark.
    The same is true for a single cpu MATX Power 9 system from Raptor.

    BUT...buying some new hardware for Mark to experiment with is NO gaurentee of official support. And something more polished than an initial beta port ought to be paid for as well (remember, Mark was paid for the G5 port).

    I don't think I can stress enough that this OS is a group project, and the group has already committed to an X64 fork.

    I, like many of you, would love to see continued development of the original PPC variant of MorphOS.
    It would still support 68K code, it's NOT Intel/X86 (and alternatives to that have always had their appeal), and who said we HAVE to be practical?

    Power9 based MorphOS? I find the idea VERY attractive. Especially as the base for a new generation of MorphOS. It could run our existing apps and provide a base for all the new features we've discussed in a potential X64 fork (as well as potentially running OS4 via KVM if we wanted to really wanted to freak out the red team).

    If the price for the MATX system is good, Power9 would be a kick ass direction for us to move toward.

    Addendum - I noticed that in another thread, Redrumloa has mentioned that the 2.7 GHz G5 has the most powerful PPC NG processor available, and that someone else mention the T2080 as a possible contender.
    While I am a supporter of the T2080 laptop project I'd like to point out that although the T2080 does support 8 concurrent threads (versus a max of 4 for the best G5), Jim's contention is correct.
    The 970 has a faster clock speed, better memory throughput (especially true for the DDR2 dual core variants) and a pretty competent FPU.
    It does lack a hypervisor, but overall it's a pretty remarkable processor (especially considering how old it is).

    Which makes the argument for supporting Power9 all the stronger. The G5 was a Power4 derived cpu with a reduced feature set. Power9 is five generations later, with no compromises in it's design.
    Like the 970 was in it's day, Power9 is quite capable when compared to current X64 cpus.

    [ Edited by Jim 03.09.2018 - 19:20 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »03.09.18 - 23:39
    Profile
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    ernsteiswuerfel
    Posts: 545 from 2015/6/18
    From: Funeralopolis
    Looks very good!

    The mATX form factor assures that it will be much easier to find a suitable (and cheap) case. :-) Also a big improvement are the onboard SATA-connectors. On the other Talos variants you have to check first if your PCIe SATA card (in case your don't want to pay $ 300 for the onboard SAS-controller) is actually supported in the Petitboot-kernel if you want to boot from SATA.
    Talos II. [Gentoo Linux] | PMac G5 11,2. PMac G4 3,6. PBook G4 5,8. [MorphOS 3.18 / Gentoo Linux] | Vampire V4 SA [ApolloOS / Amiga OS 3.2.2]
  • »04.10.18 - 11:35
    Profile
  • Caterpillar
    Caterpillar
    xilinder
    Posts: 39 from 2018/2/1
    From: USA
    Quote:

    ernsteiswuerfel wrote:
    Looks very good!

    The mATX form factor assures that it will be much easier to find a suitable (and cheap) case. :-) Also a big improvement are the onboard SATA-connectors. On the other Talos variants you have to check first if your PCIe SATA card (in case your don't want to pay $ 300 for the onboard SAS-controller) is actually supported in the Petitboot-kernel if you want to boot from SATA.

    I have the onboard SAS-controller and I use SATA drives on the SAS inputs. The speed of the drives is only slower by a marginal amount compared to a SAS hard drive. This thing is just blistering fast, and although the fans run at full speed during the boot cycle, the machine is whisper quiet during operation.
  • »04.10.18 - 23:28
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Zylesea
    Posts: 2053 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:

    ernsteiswuerfel schrieb:
    Looks very good!

    The mATX form factor assures that it will be much easier to find a suitable (and cheap) case. :-) Also a big improvement are the onboard SATA-connectors. On the other Talos variants you have to check first if your PCIe SATA card (in case your don't want to pay $ 300 for the onboard SAS-controller) is actually supported in the Petitboot-kernel if you want to boot from SATA.


    This would be cool, could bring life again to my quite liked cooler Master atc 620 case which currently still houses the retired peg1 and is just coollecting dust AT the attic.
    But needs a certain os of course to attract me.
    --
    http://via.bckrs.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
    ...and Matthias , my friend - RIP
  • »04.10.18 - 23:49
    Profile Visit Website
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
    ernsteiswuerfel
    Posts: 545 from 2015/6/18
    From: Funeralopolis
    A very interesting side effect from the Talos II development is the quite big effort of porting Chromium to ppc64 klick. Albeith it seems most of this is LE stuff.
    Talos II. [Gentoo Linux] | PMac G5 11,2. PMac G4 3,6. PBook G4 5,8. [MorphOS 3.18 / Gentoo Linux] | Vampire V4 SA [ApolloOS / Amiga OS 3.2.2]
  • »06.10.18 - 15:02
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12073 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > porting Chromium to ppc64 [...] is LE stuff.

    Yes, and it's way less effort because the Chromium sources are LE-specific in many places. However, there's also an effort to port to big-endian PPC64:

    https://wiki.raptorcs.com/wiki/Porting/Chromium/BE
  • »06.10.18 - 16:34
    Profile