MorphOS on AmigaOne X5000?
  • Acolyte of the Butterfly
    Acolyte of the Butterfly
    bennymee
    Posts: 132 from 2004/4/14
    From: Netherlands
    Quote:

    Spectre660 wrote:
    Nice Video.

    Perhaps time to see if A-Eon and some of the X5000 dealers are interested in providing some tangible support for fast tracking MorphOS Radeon SI support .


    A win win situation? OS4 has these drivers, Hans is hired by A-eon and the latter is interested in supporting Mos.
  • »18.04.18 - 19:32
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    bennymee wrote:
    Quote:

    Spectre660 wrote:
    Nice Video.

    Perhaps time to see if A-Eon and some of the X5000 dealers are interested in providing some tangible support for fast tracking MorphOS Radeon SI support .


    A win win situation? OS4 has these drivers, Hans is hired by A-eon and the latter is interested in supporting Mos.



    Not really. Hans is paid to develop graphics drivers under contract to Aeon for OS4, Aeon's preferred operating system.
    Frank and Mark aren't paid to develop our graphics drivers under MorphOS.

    And our OpenGL implementations are pretty different.

    I don't know that our developers would want to enlist the help of a paid OS4 coder, and I'm not sure that they need that help.

    What you probably aren't aware of is that Mark hasn't been working solely on graphics drivers, and yet he's still managed to update all the drivers that didn't have 2D acceleration and add support for all video cards/gpus up to those that are GCN based.

    Don't sweat this, BOTH OS' have talented programmers working on this stuff.
    Mark could use some more video cards, but he's still updating everything and moving forward.

    If you think we can get some support with video card donations, I think I can put a list together of the cards needed.

    BTW, we will eventually have 3D drivers for cards the OS4 community doesn't.

    Plus, those new cards you are worrying about?
    I'm sure Mark will get to them.

    Mark's just giving us full support, an evolution from our current cards right up to those cards.

    [ Edited by Jim 18.04.2018 - 18:41 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »18.04.18 - 22:37
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Mark [...] still managed to [...] add support for all video cards/gpus
    > up to those that are GCN based.

    Not quite. TeraScale3 (Cayman, Antilles), the last pre-GCN architecture, is apparently not supported. I wonder if he will add support for it (as you insinuated half a year ago), or skip it and go directly from currently supported TeraScale2 to GCN1.
  • »19.04.18 - 09:22
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > Mark [...] still managed to [...] add support for all video cards/gpus
    > up to those that are GCN based.

    Not quite. TeraScale3 (Cayman, Antilles), the last pre-GCN architecture, is apparently not supported. I wonder if he will add support for it (as you insinuated half a year ago), or skip it and go directly from currently supported TeraScale2 to GCN1.


    No, I don't expect the 69XX cards to be supported.
    I've used one and it was a big disappointment when compared to the 78XX, only a little better than the 6870 it replaced, and larger (rather massive actually, like an HD5850), with a higher power draw.

    I sold mine, I suppose I should have sent it to Mark, but I didn't.

    Those two gpus were short term solutions for high end cards until GCN gpus were ready.
    Terascale3 support? If Mark wants it, who knows, but the T3 based cards aren't good solutions for us.

    I can't remember, but Mark might have mentioned having one or having access to one.

    I moved from the HD6870, to the HD7850 for the next higher end card (I also sent Mark an R7 260X GCN Gen2 card, but that doesn't perform as nearly well as the 78xxs).

    Sorry I never posted anything about it.

    Mark's primary focus has been practicality, price and what is appropriate for the OS.
    You've seen his current PCIe recommendation, the HD6450 (or its latter, relabeled variants).

    And the focus on the R600 and R700 cards might have been the possibility of including the AGP models in the support list for our older systems. The R800 was apparently fairly a fairly easy move.

    I'm not sure how ANYTHING above that works under MorphOS, because I haven't tried it. For my X64 use, the HD5850 worked well (Windows no longer properly supports the R700), the HD6870 worked better, and the HD7850 was a mixed bag (depending on what version of DirectX the software you were running required, earlier software works BETTER on an HD6870).

    BTW - I haven't sent the R5 240 I have for him yet either. I want to see if I can wrangle an RX560 to ship with the next package (along with the X5000 cpu cooler Aaron helped provide to cool Mark's pre-production system as it has a weaker cooler than the production boards).

    In any case, the first GCN cards you are likely to see support for aren't nearly as powerful as the HD7850, probably something like the HD7750 or the R5/7 240.

    So no, I don't want him to focus on those last two Terascale revisions, but then that is his choice, so ask him.
    Mark and I send a small packets of email at each other with months spaced in between.
    Part of why I try to avoid broad statements about what he's going to release is he always surprises me.
    And it not my place to announce anything. To clarify, anything I say is purely speculative.

    Although once 3.10 was released, Mark did tell me he thought he would be able to release HD3850 AGP support soon, before he posted it here. Then again, he didn't promise it to any of us.

    Hey, at this point GCN cards themselves are just a goal. Might not happen, the World could end tomorrow (or maybe the day our President meets the leader of North Korea - after all, they're are both seriously crazy).
    And if what I learned about probability is correct, you can't prove that anything will happen, you can just estimate a degree of certainty.

    Look, there are limited number of SAM460 and X5000 users that can benefit from R600 (and up) PCIe right now.
    Mostly OS4 users.
    I'd value the R600 AGP support more, for the majority of US.

    The only real value in having GCN support is those are the cards that are usually supplied with X5000 systems and the low end cards have now transitioned to these gpus.

    And really...high end cards don't scale well with our limited cpu power.

    Oh, and as a useless closing point, you know I actually miss memory mapped video RAM. All the requirements of driving these accelerated gpus still baffle me. ;-)

    [ Edited by Jim 19.04.2018 - 08:47 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »19.04.18 - 12:41
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Thanks for the reference. One of the points mentioned has been brought up before, the lack of documentation.
    And it's got to be an added complication that these 2D functions have to be implemented with 3D gpu operations.

    Video driver creation under OS4 is moving right along.
    Being able to devote full time to it has to help.

    But still, since our developers already have full time jobs, I still think donations of hardware and bounties make more sense for us.

    Then again, paying Mark has worked in the past...
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »19.04.18 - 14:08
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Spectre660
    Posts: 275 from 2015/6/30
    Spinning of Radeon drivers for later model cards as separate development could be an option.
    Thus not being tied to the main MorphOS release cycle.
  • »19.04.18 - 14:20
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > there are limited number of SAM460 and X5000 users that can benefit
    > from R600 (and up) PCIe right now. Mostly OS4 users.

    It's certainly a dubious benefit for them if they have to go back to 2D-only support under OS4.

    > The only real value in having GCN support is those are the cards that
    > are usually supplied with X5000 systems and the low end cards have now
    > transitioned to these gpus.

    Availability can be a factor as well. The last cards with TeraScale2 GPUs are R5 210...235 from 2013/2014*, while last cards with GCN1 GPUs are R5/R7 430...450 from 2016.


    *Edit: The real last card with TeraScale2 GPU is the R5 310 from 2015.

    [ Edited by Andreas_Wolf 10.03.2024 - 00:35 ]
  • »19.04.18 - 14:37
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  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    koszer
    Posts: 1246 from 2004/2/8
    From: Poland
    Quote:

    Spectre660 wrote:
    Spinning of Radeon drivers for later model cards as separate development could be an option.
    Thus not being tied to the main MorphOS release cycle.



    And who would spin that?
  • »19.04.18 - 15:43
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  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Spectre660
    Posts: 275 from 2015/6/30
    Wonder how many X5000 MorphOS full time or part time users exist ?
    Poll time ?
  • »19.04.18 - 17:00
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > there are limited number of SAM460 and X5000 users that can benefit
    > from R600 (and up) PCIe right now. Mostly OS4 users.

    It's certainly a dubious benefit for them if they have to go back to 2D-only support under OS4.

    > The only real value in having GCN support is those are the cards that
    > are usually supplied with X5000 systems and the low end cards have now
    > transitioned to these gpus.

    Availability can be a factor as well. The last cards with TeraScale2 GPUs are R5 210...235 from 2013/2014, while last cards with GCN1 GPUs are R5/R7 430...450 from 2016.


    I can still find plenty of those here, 6450's, 8490's, R5's, R7's, BUT I don't really want to use them.
    From a practical standpoint an HD7650 would do much better (or an HD6670 or HD6750).
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »19.04.18 - 17:39
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > there are limited number of SAM460 and X5000 users that can benefit
    > from R600 (and up) PCIe right now. Mostly OS4 users.

    It's certainly a dubious benefit for them if they have to go back to 2D-only support under OS4.

    > The only real value in having GCN support is those are the cards that
    > are usually supplied with X5000 systems and the low end cards have now
    > transitioned to these gpus.

    Availability can be a factor as well. The last cards with TeraScale2 GPUs are R5 210...235 from 2013/2014, while last cards with GCN1 GPUs are R5/R7 430...450 from 2016.


    I can still find plenty of those here, 6450's, 8490's, R5's, R7's, BUT I don't really want to use them.
    From a practical standpoint an HD7650 would do much better (or an HD6670 or HD6750).


    Quote:

    Spectre660 wrote:
    Wonder how many X5000 MorphOS full time or part time users exist ?
    Poll time ?



    Outside of Wiktor Glowacki (Pampers) and Acil, I only know of two other MorphOS users that have them (and one of those is Bigfoot).

    I initially intended to buy one, but since I have three other MorphOS systems I can afford to wait to see if the X5000/40 makes it to market.

    If not, I'll try to snag one through Aaron before the X5000/20 disappears.

    And a new driver interfaces? Mark and I discussed an improved OpenGL implementation or something like the Vulkan API, but he thinks he'd needs the help of someone like Michał Wozniak's for something that demanding.
    And he didn't seem too impressed with OpenGL ES, but there are a few alternatives.

    In any case, at some point a better way to address the Radeon cards is needed. We don't have support for multiple displays or the simultaneous use of more than one Radeon card.

    GCN might be a good point to draw a line.

    [ Edited by Jim 19.04.2018 - 13:55 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »19.04.18 - 17:53
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> The last cards with TeraScale2 GPUs are R5 210...235 from 2013/2014

    > I can still find plenty of those here, 6450's, 8490's, R5's, R7's

    TeraScale2-based R7? Is there any?
  • »19.04.18 - 19:41
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> how many X5000 MorphOS [...] users exist ?

    > Wiktor Glowacki (Pampers)

    I don‘t think he has really used MorphOS on the X5000 for the last year (or on any other machine for that matter).
  • »19.04.18 - 19:55
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  • esc
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    esc
    Posts: 152 from 2013/5/28
    The day I can use MorphOS on my X5000 with the Radeon 7750 is the day I purchase a license.

    Why would I get a specific GPU to run MorphOS? That would severely limit what I can do in OS4, which is really the primary reason people buy X5000s. I mean, to put it another way, and again I'm not trying to be flippant here, but I'd be much more inclined to leave my X5000 as is and purchase a mac mini g4 for MorphOS. People aren't going to sacrifice OS4 optimized configuration to run MorphOS, which is a sad truth, but it is a truth.
  • »20.04.18 - 05:51
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    esc wrote:
    The day I can use MorphOS on my X5000 with the Radeon 7750 is the day I purchase a license.

    Why would I get a specific GPU to run MorphOS? That would severely limit what I can do in OS4, which is really the primary reason people buy X5000s. I mean, to put it another way, and again I'm not trying to be flippant here, but I'd be much more inclined to leave my X5000 as is and purchase a mac mini g4 for MorphOS. People aren't going to sacrifice OS4 optimized configuration to run MorphOS, which is a sad truth, but it is a truth.


    I don't take your comment as flippant.
    I haven't purchased an X5000 because I can't justify it without enhanced support from MorphOS, myself.

    And Andreas, yes, some R series cards are Terascale, not most.
    But splitting hairs with you gets boring.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »20.04.18 - 14:48
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I haven't purchased an X5000 because I can't justify it without
    > enhanced support from MorphOS, myself.

    What are you missing from MorphOS support for the X5000?

    >>>> The last cards with TeraScale2 GPUs are R5 210...235 from 2013/2014

    >>> I can still find plenty of those here, 6450's, 8490's, R5's, R7's

    >> TeraScale2-based R7? Is there any?

    > yes, some R series cards are Terascale

    I take this as a 'no' to my question whether there are any TeraScale2-based R7 cards. About TeraScale2-based R5 cards I wrote myself numerous times to you. You even quoted it in your comments #794 and #795.
  • »20.04.18 - 18:44
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2793 from 2006/3/21
    From: Northern Calif...
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Quote:

    esc wrote:
    The day I can use MorphOS on my X5000 with the Radeon 7750 is the day I purchase a license.

    Why would I get a specific GPU to run MorphOS? That would severely limit what I can do in OS4, which is really the primary reason people buy X5000s. I mean, to put it another way, and again I'm not trying to be flippant here, but I'd be much more inclined to leave my X5000 as is and purchase a mac mini g4 for MorphOS. People aren't going to sacrifice OS4 optimized configuration to run MorphOS, which is a sad truth, but it is a truth.


    I don't take your comment as flippant.
    I haven't purchased an X5000 because I can't justify it without enhanced support from MorphOS, myself.


    I also don't take his comment as flippant, but I don't think it is 100% accurate either. Not every X5000 buyer is interested in running AmigaOS4.x as their primary reason for the purchase. There might be "some" MorphOS users who want new hardware, plus the ability to occasionally run AmigaOS4.x, out of curiosity, just to see how it performs and compares to their preferred operating system, "MorphOS". Sure, the number of MorphOS users who have bought, or will buy an X5000/020, or X5000/040, if/when the 4 core X5000 becomes available, are very small, but not all buyers are, or will be interested in primarily running AmigaOS4.x, instead of MorphOS. I do agree that most X5000 buyers will be AmigaOS4.x users, by a large margin.

    Quote:

    And Andreas, yes, some R series cards are Terascale, not most.
    But splitting hairs with you gets boring.


    But splitting hairs is what Andreas does best! ;-)

    [ Edited by amigadave 20.04.2018 - 19:02 ]
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »21.04.18 - 02:00
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > splitting hairs

    My interest to learn about TeraScale2-based R7 cards is genuine.
  • »21.04.18 - 06:46
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > splitting hairs

    My interest to learn about TeraScale2-based R7 cards is genuine.


    Funny. ;-)

    By now you ought to be used to AMD/ATI throwing about names and relabeling older hardware with newer nomenclature. R5/R7...ah, whatever. No, there are no Terascale R7s. But there are Terascale R5s, while at the same time, there are GCN gpus that span R5 and R7 designations.

    Its all so much BS.

    Which is why I keep a copy of the AMD gpu family info from Wikipedia bookmarked.

    That way when someone says "Caicos", I know they mean something that spans from HD64XX to R5.

    And on that note, AMD felt comfortable enough with that gpu to let it span four revisions of its lineup, only replacing it at R5 3XX.

    And THAT is why, when Mark said (quite awhile ago),"...about the only thing I need right now is Oland", I should have gotten on that quicker.

    It HAS been in his sights, so...again..my bad.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »21.04.18 - 13:37
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2793 from 2006/3/21
    From: Northern Calif...
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    ...... THAT is why, when Mark said (quite awhile ago),"...about the only thing I need right now is Oland", I should have gotten on that quicker.

    It HAS been in his sights, so...again..my bad.


    Don't beat yourself up about that, and I meant to request earlier that you either A. Post a list of video cards that Mark & Frank still need sent to them, to further video card driver development, or B. set up a web page of your own with a donate button, so the rest of us can send you money to purchase and ship the video cards that Mark & Frank need.

    You have done a great job of sourcing video cards for Mark and Frank for a long time, and I think it is high time for you to allow some of the rest of us to help, even if it is just with the cost of obtaining and shipping the cards, by sending you some money via PayPal, or some other money transfer service you prefer.
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »21.04.18 - 19:24
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  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    amigadave wrote:
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    ...... THAT is why, when Mark said (quite awhile ago),"...about the only thing I need right now is Oland", I should have gotten on that quicker.

    It HAS been in his sights, so...again..my bad.


    Don't beat yourself up about that, and I meant to request earlier that you either A. Post a list of video cards that Mark & Frank still need sent to them, to further video card driver development, or B. set up a web page of your own with a donate button, so the rest of us can send you money to purchase and ship the video cards that Mark & Frank need.

    You have done a great job of sourcing video cards for Mark and Frank for a long time, and I think it is high time for you to allow some of the rest of us to help, even if it is just with the cost of obtaining and shipping the cards, by sending you some money via PayPal, or some other money transfer service you prefer.


    Thanks David, but the cost and avaibility here (even in Europe) is much better than in South Africa.
    And it's been educational so far.
    Also, Frank usually buys better cards for himself, and I spend some time socializing with Mark because he's a good guy.

    So it's kind of casual. Didn't want to make it sound like burden.

    I would like to organize to buy Mark some X64 components.
    Specifically a Ryzen Gen2 cpu, some DDR4 and a decent motherboard.

    You're all harping about the X64 shift, and Mark also said that faster X64 hardware would cut his compile times, making working with Oddesey and other packages easier.

    After all, Bigfoot has contributed more than just graphics drivers.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »25.04.18 - 09:42
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2793 from 2006/3/21
    From: Northern Calif...
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Thanks David, but the cost and avaibility here (even in Europe) is much better than in South Africa.
    And it's been educational so far.
    Also, Frank usually buys better cards for himself, and I spend some time socializing with Mark because he's a good guy.

    So it's kind of casual. Didn't want to make it sound like burden.

    I would like to organize to buy Mark some X64 components.
    Specifically a Ryzen Gen2 cpu, some DDR4 and a decent motherboard.

    You're all harping about the X64 shift, and Mark also said that faster X64 hardware would cut his compile times, making working with Oddesey and other packages easier.

    After all, Bigfoot has contributed more than just graphics drivers.


    I don't doubt that you have enjoyed helping the MorphOS Dev. Team by sending video cards and such to Mark and others, and getting to socialize a bit with them, but you could continue to do all of that, while just letting a few of us share in the cost, by sending you either more video cards that the team needs, or some money to pay for future gear purchases, and shipping costs.

    Although I would never consider monthly, or even yearly, fixed contributions to Hyperion for development of AmigaOS4, I'm not opposed to sending the MorphOS Dev. Team a monthly, or yearly donation to help fund further development of MorphOS and the Odyssey web browser.
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »26.04.18 - 01:41
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  • Jim
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    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    @AmigaDave

    Thanks David,
    I'll try to get this Oland card out, and the cpu cooler.

    Then the next thing I'd like to go for is a video card somewhere from an RX560 to and RX580.

    The new AMD socket AM4 motherboards aren't out yet, and the Ryzen 7 2800X isn't available out either (and at similar clock speeds there isn't much difference between the current 1800X and the new 2700X, so might as well wait).

    And figuring out what memory is compatible will take awhile.

    It would be nice to get some of this together by Fall.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »26.04.18 - 19:14
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  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    Addendum:

    >>> Does MorphOS 3.10 support the GbE controller of the P5020?

    >> [...] a Realtek 8168/8169/8111/whichever on the network side

    > I take this as a no ;-)

    "P50x0_eth (New): A resource used for handling access to resources related to P50x0 Ethernet."
    http://www.morphos-team.net/releasenotes/3.11

    What does this rather cryptic phrase mean? Is the GbE controller of the P5020 supported now?
  • »06.07.18 - 14:43
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