MorphOS on AmigaOne X5000?
  • vox
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    vox
    Posts: 519 from 2003/11/24
    From: Belgrade
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > proper SATA [...] driver

    What's wrong with the X5000 SATA driver?
    DVD dissapear, buggy.
    http://forum.hyperion-entertainment.biz/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=3617

    > it seems some of "x1000 lessons" have been learned ([...] UBoot not CFE, [...] faster CPU).

    The decisions for the particular boot loaders had nothing to do with "lessons learned". P.A. Semi used CFE for their Electra/Chitra boards, and Freescale used U-Boot for their P5020DS board. So they made the choice and A-Eon/Varisys simply followed it to minimize cost.
    Also, the P5020 simply wasn't available before 2012 (the year of the X1000 release), so A-Eon/Varisys couldn't use it as base for the X1000 in 2009 (when the QorIQ P5 series wasn't even announced).



    Well, minimal costs arent wisest choice. CFE cant actually boot a thing, has most horrible
    line editing ever seen etc. etc. Not to mention does not properly initialize VGA every time,
    unlike Uboot that has some x86 BIOS limitation. Its made for initializing Broadcomm
    routers or similar and PA Semi code is just slapped to it. It offers some interesting
    options, but extreme user unfriendly.

    If they could source PA Semi, they could some decent G4 or G5 too.
    This way it looks like:

    a) ACK promise develivered late with high price
    b) Experimental machine to get things going, so we can produce x5000
    c) Slowest CPU in use compared its clock rate. Sad thing is its slowise
    for modern Linux and overkill for OS4 currently

    And now lets all enjoy new cheaper and CFE free x5000 :-)

    To make x5000 attractive Trevor decided to support MorphOS port.
    In x1000 days tune was "its oK if someone else do it"

    Its understandable x1000 couldnt be produced more due to strangest CPU in the world.
    Its only sad how fast its a bit abandoned, forgotten and kind of burried.
    ------------------------------------------
    iMac G5 1GB with MorphOS and MacOS X
    Lame PC with AmiKit XE
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  • »30.05.17 - 03:10
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12019 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >> What's wrong with the X5000 SATA driver?

    > DVD dissapear, buggy.
    > http://forum.hyperion-entertainment.biz/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=3617

    Thanks. I wasn't aware of these limitations.

    >> P.A. Semi [...] and Freescale [...] made the choice and A-Eon/Varisys simply followed
    >> it to minimize cost.

    > minimal costs arent wisest choice.

    Commissioning an U-Boot port to the Nemo board would have made the X1000 even more expensive.

    > Uboot [...] has some x86 BIOS limitation.

    Which limitation is that?

    > CFE [...] [is] made for initializing Broadcomm routers or similar

    Yes, CFE is used in Broadcom-based routers from Apple, Asus, Buffalo, Linksys and Netgear, as well as in Broadcom-based Smart TVs and Blu-ray players from LG and Samsung.

    > If they could source PA Semi, they could some decent G4 or G5 too.

    http://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=11&topic_id=11137&start=222

    > To make x5000 attractive Trevor decided to support MorphOS port.
    > In x1000 days tune was "its oK if someone else do it"

    I doubt Trevor's support for the MorphOS port to the X5000 has been bigger than what he would have done to support a MorphOS port to the X1000. It was the MorphOS team who declined to port to the X1000, for several reasons, including Ben Hermans' involvement in the original A-Eon company.
  • »30.05.17 - 11:30
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  • vox
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    vox
    Posts: 519 from 2003/11/24
    From: Belgrade
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:

    SATA driver is "complicated" (Steven Sollie), so he asks for patience.
    Then you buy new x5000 to discover OS driver is in alpha state,
    and Linux DVD wasnt supplied. Huh, Amiga ways. And MorphOS is not yet out >:-)

    >> P.A. Semi [...] and Freescale [...] made the choice and A-Eon/Varisys simply followed
    >> it to minimize cost.

    > minimal costs arent wisest choice.

    Commissioning an U-Boot port to the Nemo board would have made the X1000 even more expensive.

    But would be far more reasonable and usable solution.
    And I could bear few euros more :-)

    > Uboot [...] has some x86 BIOS limitation.

    Which limitation is that?

    Emulation for VGa cards BIOS that bypassed initalization and reset problems.

    > CFE [...] [is] made for initializing Broadcomm routers or similar

    Yes, CFE is used in Broadcom-based routers from Apple, Asus, Buffalo, Linksys and Netgear, as well as in Broadcom-based Smart TVs and Blu-ray players from LG and Samsung.

    So its never ment for booting and VGA initialization, and they
    sell me desktop without such important info >:-)

    > If they could source PA Semi, they could some decent G4 or G5 too.

    I doubt Trevor's support for the MorphOS port to the X5000 has been bigger than what he would have done to support a MorphOS port to the X1000. It was the MorphOS team who declined to port to the X1000, for several reasons, including Ben Hermans' involvement in the original A-Eon company.

    Ok, since x5000/020 isnt improvement big enough to justify sell/buy operations,
    one day they might have mercy on surviving Nemos >:-)
    ------------------------------------------
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    Lame PC with AmiKit XE
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  • »31.05.17 - 05:00
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
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    Quote:

    vox wrote:...Emulation for VGa cards BIOS that bypassed initalization and reset problems...


    I believe the latest OS4 driver use the same Atom bios functionality that Bigfoot has been using to get X86 cards working in Macs.
    So outside of uboot functionality, x86 emulation is of limited use.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »31.05.17 - 15:18
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  • vox
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    vox
    Posts: 519 from 2003/11/24
    From: Belgrade
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Quote:

    vox wrote:...Emulation for VGa cards BIOS that bypassed initalization and reset problems...


    I believe the latest OS4 driver use the same Atom bios functionality that Bigfoot has been using to get X86 cards working in Macs.
    So outside of uboot functionality, x86 emulation is of limited use.


    I am speaking of other, rather nasty thing, CFE related and gfx card related.
    Not the RadeonHD driver.

    CFE simply does not initialize VGA video signal on boot or on reset.

    You simply get a video outpout sometimes, and sometimes you dont.
    Its more often on soft resets, but nothing really helps.

    And its "normal", on AmigaKit tested and sold cards.

    http://forum.hyperion-entertainment.biz/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=2053
    http://forum.hyperion-entertainment.biz/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=2518
    http://forum.hyperion-entertainment.biz/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=2164

    I can say its CFE/x1000 related, since card works normally when put to a x64
    ------------------------------------------
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  • »03.06.17 - 22:16
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  • vox
  • Priest of the Order of the Butterfly
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    vox
    Posts: 519 from 2003/11/24
    From: Belgrade
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    The decisions for the particular boot loaders had nothing to do with "lessons learned". P.A. Semi used CFE for their Electra/Chitra boards, and Freescale used U-Boot for their P5020DS board. So they made the choice and A-Eon/Varisys simply followed it to minimize cost.
    Also, the P5020 simply wasn't available before 2012 (the year of the X1000 release), so A-Eon/Varisys couldn't use it as base for the X1000 in 2009 (when the QorIQ P5 series wasn't even announced).


    I understand it was EASIEST choice and with so many CFE bugs I experience, I am willing to say
    UNFINISHED even after few revisions ...

    I understand UBoot port would add cost to already expensive machine,
    but is far better choice then having expensive machine with worse BIOS ever,
    that is not even really ment to boot (read boot sectors) but you generally
    have to point to everything and editing is quite a horror as well as switches
    for everything, CFE cannot autodetect even a file system.
    ------------------------------------------
    iMac G5 1GB with MorphOS and MacOS X
    Lame PC with AmiKit XE
    YT channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdHl_msNWHEVPf229h_gijQ
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  • »03.06.17 - 22:22
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    ppcamiga1
    Posts: 215 from 2015/8/23
    Many things changes after vox sell his Amiga X1000.
    Warp3D for Radeon SI cards was made.
    Also OpenGL with shaders.
    There is not much software for WarpOs.
    For WarpOs You can use ReWarp. Heretic II works.
    Vampire will be nice but is too slow, has not MMU and FPU.
    Amiga OS 4 at least support classic software made for FPU.
    Many classic soiftware works, after some tweaks.
  • »09.07.17 - 13:47
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12019 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Many things changes after vox sell his Amiga X1000.
    > Warp3D for Radeon SI cards was made.

    I think he still has his X1000 and has a Radeon SI installed in it.
  • »09.07.17 - 14:04
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > Hope situation will resolve [...].

    http://amigaonthelake.com/blog/aeon-amiga-on-the-lake/


    Ah, they decide to play nice. ;-)

    Now, since the post doesn't mention AmigaKit, does anyone know if this reconciliation includes matt, or does it bypass AmigaKit?
    And if it does, does that mean Aaron still isn't carrying other AmigaKit listed products?
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »09.07.17 - 15:31
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12019 from 2003/5/22
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    > does anyone know if this reconciliation includes matt

    I guess it does. After all, he is A-Eon's sole managing director as well as A-Eon's main shareholder ;-)
  • »09.07.17 - 17:51
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > does anyone know if this reconciliation includes matt

    I guess it does. After all, he is A-Eon's sole managing director as well as A-Eon's main shareholder ;-)


    But there is nothing listed on AOTL's site that appears to have to come through AmigaKit (although we can probably assume that is how the X5000 hardware is purchased).
    I congratulated Aaron on the resolution, but specifically avoided this question.

    Really, its none of my business, I shouldn't even be posting it here, I am just really curious to know about the resolution.

    Then again, since the break was too public, the current status is more than enough info.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »09.07.17 - 19:49
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    amigadave
    Posts: 2793 from 2006/3/21
    From: Northern Calif...
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > Hope situation will resolve [...].

    http://amigaonthelake.com/blog/aeon-amiga-on-the-lake/


    Ah, they decide to play nice. ;-)

    Now, since the post doesn't mention AmigaKit, does anyone know if this reconciliation includes matt, or does it bypass AmigaKit?
    And if it does, does that mean Aaron still isn't carrying other AmigaKit listed products?


    Since the announcement was authored by A-Eon in Cardiff, I'm guessing that it was Matt who wrote it. I don't know why you dislike Matt, or why you think customer service from AmigaKit for North America customers (or any customers for that matter), is not good, as I have spent many thousands of dollars buying all kinds of Amiga gear from AmigaKit over the years, and have almost never had any problems. The couple of mistakes that were made, were quickly taken care of, in the most professional and courteous manner I have experienced from any tech company.

    I would not be surprised if there are a few AmigaKit customers who don't share my feelings, or views on AmigaKit's customer service, but when I think of how many unreasonable and childish Amiga users I have seen on many different Amiga related forum sites, it is no wonder to me that Matt may have had some less than optimal interactions with a few of them (I won't name any names, to avoid stirring up a hornet's nest). If Matt has been less patient with some customers, due to his usual calm demeanor being worn thin from time to time, I think that any of us would probably react the same, or worse, under similar circumstances. Just imagine trying to satisfy everyone in all Amiga related camps, without making anyone unhappy, and not making any enemies? Probably not possible for any of us.

    I'm not saying Matt or Trevor are saints, but having met both men several times, they seem like regular good guys, with genuine passion for the Amiga, and desire to help this community as best they can.
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »09.07.17 - 19:51
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > does anyone know if this reconciliation includes matt

    I guess it does. After all, he is A-Eon's sole managing director as well as A-Eon's main shareholder ;-)


    AeonKit...

    ;-)
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »09.07.17 - 21:44
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > does anyone know if this reconciliation includes matt

    I guess it does. After all, he is A-Eon's sole managing director as well as A-Eon's main shareholder ;-)


    AeonKit...

    ;-)


    Yes, that might be apt name for it.

    @ David,

    I've only had a little interaction with Matt and company.

    I do know they sold me a Cocolino PS/2 mouse adapter that draws to much power to be used in the applications I have tried it in, and then misquoted my complaints about the matter on one of the forums they regularly post on.

    And returning a relatively low cost item to a company in Great Britain is a exercise in futility as the postage will eat up a large percentage of the original price.

    Also, while they do support the community, they have control over the distribution of Aeon hardware and the support and margins offered to the resellers.
    And I'm not comfortable with that or the casual way the company does business, its too much like something run by a hobbyist, for hobbyists, rather than a competitive business.
    I know our market is small, and we should be grateful for the support we get, but I just expect more professionalism from those I buy from.

    That said, I can live with it, and if it helps Trevor's endeavors...I'll just leave it be.

    Either way, I can, once again, purchase from Aaron, so I'm cool.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »09.07.17 - 22:58
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    amigadave
    Posts: 2793 from 2006/3/21
    From: Northern Calif...
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > does anyone know if this reconciliation includes matt

    I guess it does. After all, he is A-Eon's sole managing director as well as A-Eon's main shareholder ;-)


    AeonKit...

    ;-)


    Yes, that might be apt name for it.

    @ David,

    I've only had a little interaction with Matt and company.

    I do know they sold me a Cocolino PS/2 mouse adapter that draws to much power to be used in the applications I have tried it in, and then misquoted my complaints about the matter on one of the forums they regularly post on.

    And returning a relatively low cost item to a company in Great Britain is a exercise in futility as the postage will eat up a large percentage of the original price.

    Also, while they do support the community, they have control over the distribution of Aeon hardware and the support and margins offered to the resellers.
    And I'm not comfortable with that or the casual way the company does business, its too much like something run by a hobbyist, for hobbyists, rather than a competitive business.
    I know our market is small, and we should be grateful for the support we get, but I just expect more professionalism from those I buy from.

    That said, I can live with it, and if it helps Trevor's endeavors...I'll just leave it be.

    Either way, I can, once again, purchase from Aaron, so I'm cool.



    I wasn't referring to you, in my earlier post. If your complaints about the Cocolino were made in a forum, instead of directly to customer service, then I would say that was your first mistake. The fact that they misquoted you (IMO) is no big deal, as that kind of thing happens all the time, and miscommunication can be cleared up quickly by contacting the other party directly. I'm not going to get into trying to figure out who was right, or wrong in your dispute with AmigaKit over your Cocolino PS2 mouse, and it is irrelevant to your point that having a USA distributor is better than having to ship something across the Atlantic for warranty repairs or replacement. IMO, it never resolves anything to discuss complaints about a company in a public forum, until all other attempts to resolve the problem via direct communications have failed several times. Maybe you did, or maybe AmigaKit brought up your complaint in the forum, not you (but somehow I doubt it).

    As far as I know, AmigaKit does not manufacture the Cocolino PS2 mouse, they only distribute/re-sell them. If it were me, my first attempt to get resolution with the product would be from the manufacturer of the item, not the reseller, specially if the product partially works, but perhaps not in the way you expected, or needed for your particular instance. Many others, including perhaps yourself, may opt for asking the reseller/distributor first, to resolve warranty issues, which is okay too, just not the way I do things usually.

    Unless things have changed recently at AmigaKit, I think they respond quickly to customer service questions, and requests, though I have heard of some strange occurrences where one or two customers have waited long periods of time, without a resolution, but I also suspect that a lack of communication is to blame in that instance.

    I'm not trying to defend AmigaKit, or Matthew, I'm only relating my many experiences with them, and my personal opinion, which is based on how I have been treated by AmigaKit staff, and well over 90% of all AmigaKit customers I have heard from, in any form. Given that their service to me has been so good, for so long, it is hard for me to imagine that they treat other customers any differently.
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »10.07.17 - 23:47
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
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    Don't sweat it Dave, I got over it.
    And I wasn't really directing an inquiry to them on the forum I mentioned, I was warning another user about the issue I'd experienced.
    Since they have staff acting as mods they chimed in about it, and misstated the issue I'd had (even though I'd communicated it to them directly).
    I usually expect a vendor I buy from to be my first source of assistance in problem solving, but its not a issue related to anything Matt or his staff can work on (its a current supply issue related to the design).

    Anyway, no big deal, I'm saving the Cocolino for my A2000 if I ever upgrade that and start using it again.

    At least with Aaron, returning hardware will be a practical option.

    BTW - Its beginning to sound like this year's AmiWest could shape up to be more interesting than usual.
    Possible release of the A1222, other interesting stuff...
    I tried to clear the time, but I'm going to be training for a new position during the Fall, so I can't count on that time off.
    Otherwise I'd consider buying an X5000/20 motherboard and assembling a system for show exhibition.

    Even if MorphOS 3.10 isn't released by then, it could be possible to arrange for a beta copy (after all, Pampers had a copy for evaluation), and Bigfoot might even have a beta Radeon HD driver available by then. Mark's on a business trip right now, but the last time I exchanged messages with him it sounded like he was progressing quite nicely.

    Then again, like everything, 3.10 and the accelerated video drivers...done when they're done, eh?

    Anyway, don't take my grumbling for a sour attitude, I always have high expectations for everyone (including myself), and it makes me appear more gruff than I actually am.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »11.07.17 - 00:19
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12019 from 2003/5/22
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    > Otherwise I'd consider buying an X5000/20 motherboard

    Tired of waiting for the X5000/40? :-)
  • »11.07.17 - 13:54
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
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    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > Otherwise I'd consider buying an X5000/20 motherboard

    Tired of waiting for the X5000/40? :-)


    Well, its hard to justify buying an X5000/20 when our current hardware seems just as capable (outside of the issue of video card support).
    Were we to have PCIe G5 support, I'm not sure I could even justify the wait. ;-)
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »11.07.17 - 16:54
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    amigadave
    Posts: 2793 from 2006/3/21
    From: Northern Calif...
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > Otherwise I'd consider buying an X5000/20 motherboard

    Tired of waiting for the X5000/40? :-)


    Well, its hard to justify buying an X5000/20 when our current hardware seems just as capable (outside of the issue of video card support).
    Were we to have PCIe G5 support, I'm not sure I could even justify the wait. ;-)




    I'd say if we ever get support for the quad G5 w/PCIe HD video card drivers fully supporting 3D, the cost of the 5040 X5000 would be very hard to justify. What do you get? It's new, it has newer SATA hardware (AmigaOS4.1FE SATA driver has at least 1 person complaining or questioning how good it is), it might have faster memory (haven't looked at the exact numbers), and the X5000 will be capable of running both AmigaOS4.1FE, and MorphOS3.10.

    If you don't mind paying the price to buy an X5000 for those few advantages, after the MorphOS Dev. Team supports the PCIe G5, (and I think you will, given your fondness for PPC hardware), then go for it.

    I doubt that the MorphOS Dev. Team will use their limited time to support the quad G5, UNLESS they want to offer MorphOS users the ability to run a cheap and fast system, which also supports PCIe video cards. The SAM460 is hard to find for sale, and not really cheap, considering the performance you get for your money. If there is no way to shut off, or put to sleep, the unused 3 extra G5 cores, running MorphOS3.10 on the quad G5 will be very energy inefficient.

    I wonder if Bigfoot is using an X5000 to write the new RadeonHD drivers, or only using the X5000 to test the driver once it is done?

    [ Edited by amigadave 11.07.2017 - 10:38 ]
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  • »11.07.17 - 17:35
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12019 from 2003/5/22
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    > What do you get?

    PCIe v2 (vs. PCIe v1).

    > it might have faster memory (haven't looked at the exact numbers)

    See comment #666.

    > If there is no way to shut off, or put to sleep, the unused 3 extra G5 cores,
    > running MorphOS3.10 on the quad G5 will be very energy inefficient.

    Yes, that's why the lower clocked dual-core models of the PCIe-based PowerMac G5 would surely be worth considering.
  • »11.07.17 - 20:51
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
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    Quote:

    amigadave wrote:
    I wonder if Bigfoot is using an X5000 to write the new RadeonHD drivers, or only using the X5000 to test the driver once it is done?


    I never thought to ask. He has a SAM 460 as well as the X5000.
    The only thing he did mention was that some of the longer cards were a challenge to fit in the X5000's case.

    [ Edited by Jim 12.07.2017 - 13:30 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »12.07.17 - 17:28
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  • Cocoon
    Cocoon
    Posts: 56 from 2016/3/9
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > Hope situation will resolve [...].

    http://amigaonthelake.com/blog/aeon-amiga-on-the-lake/


    Ah, they decide to play nice. ;-)

    Now, since the post doesn't mention AmigaKit, does anyone know if this reconciliation includes matt, or does it bypass AmigaKit?
    And if it does, does that mean Aaron still isn't carrying other AmigaKit listed products?


    When I spoke to Aaron last week he said that this was directly between him and Trevor. Aaron doesn't have much nice to say about Matthew at all from our conversations. Apparently the final straw was Matthew's demand that distributors not selling in another's area then turning around and selling the X5000 to the US for less than the US distributor.
  • »02.08.17 - 08:49
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > What do you get?

    PCIe v2 (vs. PCIe v1).


    8x PCIe v2 lanes = 16x PCIe v1 lanes. So it's the same bandwidth, right?

    Speaking of bandwidth, looking at this document (page 11)...

    https://amigaone.files.wordpress.com/2017/06/trm_cyrus_1-1-1_aeon.pdf

    ...does this mean that the PCIe 1 slot (I assume that slot 1 is the 16x slot) only has four dedicated lanes, and four switched lanes, shared with the other PCIe slots (i.e. the 16x, 4x, 1x, 1x, and "Xorro" slots)?

    :-?
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »02.08.17 - 13:16
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