MorphOS on AmigaOne X5000?
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Raf_MegaByte wrote:
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Except that you missing my point.
    What IS good is what differentiate it
    Otherwise, why not use something more mainstream?




    Ahem, I beg your pardon... are you responding to Leo or to me?




    Ahem...?
    Sorry, Leo and to some degree David.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »10.05.16 - 16:21
    Profile
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    ppcamiga1
    Posts: 215 from 2015/8/23
    Morphos x86 should be linux with Amiga graphics and gui.

    Breaking Amiga legacy compatibility compatibility and still use outdated API for basic things like files,memory managment is stupid idea.

    AROS is for example worthless crap because it has all the disadvantages of amiga os as lack of memory protection, no drivers, no support for multiple cores, problems with porting and it has not the most important advantage of the Amiga NG binary compatibility.

    Thats why, 90% of old API should be replaced with unix, and only amiga graphics and gui should stay.
  • »11.05.16 - 01:06
    Profile
  • Just looking around
    aszu
    Posts: 14 from 2013/6/15
    The sooner we go x86 the better. Just take example from Apple
  • »11.05.16 - 01:13
    Profile Visit Website
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Morphos x86 should be linux with Amiga graphics and gui. Breaking Amiga legacy
    > compatibility compatibility and still use outdated API for basic things like
    > files,memory managment is stupid idea. [...] 90% of old API should be replaced
    > with unix, and only amiga graphics and gui should stay.

    You don't think the MorphOS team is capable of developing a modern API (save graphics and GUI) for MorphOS/x64?

    > AROS is for example worthless crap because it has all the disadvantages of
    > amiga os as lack of memory protection, no drivers, no support for multiple cores

    AROS is intentionally made API-compatible with AmigaOS 3.x, which isn't supposed to be true for MorphOS/x64.

    > it has not the most important advantage of the Amiga NG binary compatibility.

    AROS/m68k has ;-)
  • »11.05.16 - 06:58
    Profile
  • Caterpillar
    Caterpillar
    AltiVeced
    Posts: 31 from 2011/10/25
    Quote:

    ppcamiga1 schrieb:
    Morphos x86 should be linux with Amiga graphics and gui.



    There is an easy solution for you.
    Buy an PC, install Windows/ Linux on it. Then you have only to use an Amiga theme on Windows/ Linux ;-)
  • »11.05.16 - 08:56
    Profile
  • Leo
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Leo
    Posts: 417 from 2003/8/18
    Quote:

    AltiVeced wrote:
    Quote:

    ppcamiga1 schrieb:
    Morphos x86 should be linux with Amiga graphics and gui.



    There is an easy solution for you.
    Buy an PC, install Windows/ Linux on it. Then you have only to use an Amiga theme on Windows/ Linux ;-)


    MorphOS using Linux as a kernel would be very different than running Linux + some kind of Amiga theme, just like putting an Aqua theme on Linux doesn't make it MacOS X.

    There is a lot more than a theme in OSX, just like there would be a lot more than a MorphOS/Amiga theme if they decided to use a Unix kernel (which they probably won't anyway).
    Nothing hurts a project more than developers not taking the time to let their community know what is going on.
  • »11.05.16 - 09:35
    Profile Visit Website
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Leo wrote:

    MorphOS using Linux as a kernel would be very different than running Linux


    It would also be different than MorphOS.

    This whole Linux discussion is a complete waste of Internet bandwidth anyway...
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »11.05.16 - 11:01
    Profile
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    pampers
    Posts: 1061 from 2009/2/26
    From: Tczew, Poland
    Quote:

    This whole Linux discussion is a complete waste of Internet bandwidth anyway...



    Like at least 50% of recent discussions.
    MorphOS 3.x
  • »11.05.16 - 11:55
    Profile Visit Website
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    pampers wrote:
    Quote:

    This whole Linux discussion is a complete waste of Internet bandwidth anyway...



    Like at least 50% of recent discussions.



    That may be. ;)

    I am not sure why this topic bothers me as I am fairly sure the developers have no interest in using a Linux base for MorphOS NG.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »11.05.16 - 14:04
    Profile
  • MorphOS Developer
    geit
    Posts: 1030 from 2004/9/23
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    I am not sure why this topic bothers me as I am fairly sure the developers have no interest in using a Linux base for MorphOS NG.



    You may are onto something here. :)
  • »11.05.16 - 16:11
    Profile
  • Just looking around
    Posts: 13 from 2016/5/7
    there have been already a Linux distro with Amiga theme, Commodore OS Vision! lol

    I'm hoping for an ARMiga with MorphOS :)

    [ Editiert durch Nimrod1971 11.05.2016 - 19:35 ]
  • »11.05.16 - 16:32
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I might have to wait for the P5040 based variant.

    It's approaching:

    http://blog.a-eon.biz/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/CyrusPlusPlus2.jpg
  • »16.05.16 - 22:07
    Profile
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Oh yeah!
    CPU type P5040.
    Nice.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »16.05.16 - 22:54
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2720 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Yasu wrote:

    And crazy pricy.


    I think the word "crazy" sums it up in general...
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »17.05.16 - 17:37
    Profile
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    takemehomegrandma wrote:
    Quote:

    Yasu wrote:

    And crazy pricy.


    I think the word "crazy" sums it up in general...


    Eh "crazy", "amiga" what's the diff?
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »17.05.16 - 20:19
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2793 from 2006/3/21
    From: Northern Calif...
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Hmm...so, would I pay an arm and a leg for a P5020 based based system when a T10XX based board the would perform almost 3/4s as well (basically, would I pay for a system that is only about 1/3rd faster than a Mac Mini)?
    I don't know, I the idea of a new system is appealing, especially if its logo'd as an AmigaOne.


    Maybe you haven't been a MorphOS user long enough to remember the general feeling most MorphOS users have, or had about the false importance (in their minds) put on the use of the AmigaOne branded name? I just found it slightly amusing to read that you might consider paying over $1,800 for an under powered PPC system, because it would be badged with an AmigaOne name. I know your preference for PPC and understand the advantages and feeling you get when buying something new, opposed to anything used, so don't take this as a knock against you for considering buying an X5000. Heck, I bought an X1000 after all, but for different reasons.

    I really thought that the X1000 would possibly be the very last AmigaOne system ever produced, and certainly thought it would be the most powerful new PPC system that would ever be produced as an AmigaOne (as I had no knowledge of the plans to use the "P" series of PPC CPU's for later AmigaOne systems/boards, when I first made my decision to buy the X1000). Who could have predicted what Trevor has now done, after losing thousands of pounds/dollars/euros, from the X1000 project, as he could never recoup the development costs, and personally made very little (if any) profit for himself, from the sales of the X1000. Even after Trevor told me that he planned to keep going with more new PPC systems, and indicated that the next project would be faster, and probably a little less expensive, I went ahead with my X1000 purchase, as I considered it a unique system, with a CPU that had some interesting history (and I initially thought better performance). I don't regret buying my X1000 and still like it for what it is (although it is well known how disappointed in Hyperion and the lack of AmigaOS4.2, I am). The only thing I regret is that MorphOS will most likely never be ported to the X1000, while it will support the X5000. Since we will have an x64 port of MorphOS some time in the future, I don't have a desire to purchase an X5000, just to get a PPC system that can dual boot AmigaOS4.x and MorphOS, with the highest PPC performance available for AmigaOS4.x. I have my dual 2.7GHz G5 PowerMac to run MorphOS3.9 very fast, so all is good. Sorry for the long winded reply, I ramble on often.

    [ Edited by amigadave 08.06.2016 - 12:31 ]
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »08.06.16 - 17:28
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > I had no knowledge of the plans to use the "P" series of PPC CPU's for later
    > AmigaOne systems/boards, when I first made my decision to buy the X1000

    These plans were first mentioned by A-Eon at AmiWest 2010.

    http://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=7001&start=634

    > Trevor [...] could never recoup the development costs, and personally made
    > very little (if any) profit for himself, from the sales of the X1000.

    Either he didn't recoup development costs or he made a profit. I don't see how it can be both at the same time.
  • »08.06.16 - 22:35
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2793 from 2006/3/21
    From: Northern Calif...
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > I had no knowledge of the plans to use the "P" series of PPC CPU's for later
    > AmigaOne systems/boards, when I first made my decision to buy the X1000

    These plans were first mentioned by A-Eon at AmiWest 2010.

    http://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=7001&start=634


    Yes, I believe I made my decision to get an X1000 before then, though I had not yet signed up to purchase one until some time long after I first decided that I would be getting one. So, I did not contradict myself, though it probably seems that way.

    Quote:

    > Trevor [...] could never recoup the development costs, and personally made
    > very little (if any) profit for himself, from the sales of the X1000.

    Either he didn't recoup development costs or he made a profit. I don't see how it can be both at the same time.


    Maybe this will make more sense for you; Trevor couldn't recoup the development costs "because" he took so little profit from each X1000 sale for himself and A-Eon. Profit for the X1000 project is a different thing than profit of each sale, as the development cost was not factored into the sale price of the X1000 and Trevor knew he would not be able to get that development money back. AmigaKit, as the distributor/reseller of the X1000 certainly made a profit from the X1000, but Trevor and A-Eon did not. Is that more clear?

    I think you understood my previous post, but enjoy pointing out any part of a message that may seem contradictory. ;-)

    Edit: I wonder if Trevor's decision to not give A-Eon any (or enough), profit on each X1000 system had anything to do with the split with Ben Hermans? Hyperion got a license fee for the included AmigaOS4.1 and future 4.2, included with each X1000 sale, but maybe Ben was also expecting a little more money from each X1000 sale, as a partner in the original A-Eon company. We will probably never know.

    [ Edited by amigadave 08.06.2016 - 22:36 ]
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »09.06.16 - 03:26
    Profile
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    OlafSch
    Posts: 186 from 2011/11/16
    @amigadave

    where do you know how Trevor calculated price for X1000? I think he calculated development cost in the price otherwise X1000 would have been much cheaper. Yes the obscure processor became much more expensive propably caused by the sudden need and him not negotiating fixed prices for it. As I understand his ideas he is prefinancing projects and then trying to get back the money from customers. i do not know how much profit X1000 finally generated but assuming that he calculates high losses when starting a project is not realistic.

    In business you calculate the price by making a sum of costs, adding profit and then dividing it with calculated sales, I do not think that Trevor D. did it different. Of course there was chaos when processor price rose considerably. I do not know if there was any profit then left.

    [ Editiert durch OlafSch 09.06.2016 - 12:23 ]
  • »09.06.16 - 09:18
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    >>> I had no knowledge of the plans to use the "P" series of PPC CPU's for later
    >>> AmigaOne systems/boards, when I first made my decision to buy the X1000

    >> These plans were first mentioned by A-Eon at AmiWest 2010.

    > Yes, I believe I made my decision to get an X1000 before then

    At least from your posting history (which doesn't have to concur with your decisions you didn't tell about in public, of course) it has always seemed to me it was AmiWest 2011 where you made your decision to get an X1000. At least that's when your public praise of the X1000 started, whereas in postings shortly after AmiWest 2010 you showed scepticism as to whether it will really make it to end users.

    http://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=7967&start=87
    http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=32886&forum=33&start=80#593184

    >>> Trevor [...] could never recoup the development costs, and personally made
    >>> very little (if any) profit for himself, from the sales of the X1000.

    >> Either he didn't recoup development costs or he made a profit.
    >> I don't see how it can be both at the same time.

    > the development cost was not factored into the sale price of the X1000 [...].
    > AmigaKit [...] certainly made a profit from the X1000, but Trevor and A-Eon
    > did not. Is that more clear?

    Yes, when you now say that Trevor/A-Eon didn't make any profit from the X1000, it is clear to me.
    In real world terms, wouldn't the X1000 project have to be called a commercial failure when Trevor/A-Eon didn't recoup the development costs?

    > I think you understood my previous post

    No, I genuinely didn't, because speaking about profit for Trevor/A-Eon when the NRE costs are not factored into the sale price is beyond me.

    > I wonder if Trevor's decision to not give A-Eon any (or enough), profit
    > on each X1000 system had anything to do with the split with Ben Hermans?
    > Hyperion got a license fee for the included AmigaOS4.1 and future 4.2,
    > included with each X1000 sale, but maybe Ben was also expecting a little
    > more money from each X1000 sale, as a partner in the original A-Eon company.

    While speculating we shouldn't forget that A-Eon Ltd. took over from A-Eon CVBA only *after* the initial First Contact batch was delivered to end users. Hermans quit his A-Eon CVBA director position shortly after AmiWest 2010, but there's no indication he also sold his shares at that point.

    http://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=7183&start=979
  • »09.06.16 - 11:04
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 12058 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > where do you know how Trevor calculated price for X1000? I think he calculated
    > development cost in the price otherwise X1000 would have been much cheaper.

    Trevor himself said he didn't factor NRE costs into the X1000 sale price (and that he would handle it differently with the X5000):

    http://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=7183&start=831

    > the obscure processor became much more expensive propably caused by the sudden
    > need and him not negotiating fixed prices for it.

    I suspect the PA6T price increase was due to needing to source further remnants from another, much more expensive source because the original quantity had been depleted. But according to A-Eon/AmigaKit, the PA6T price increase was not passed on to the customers anyway:

    http://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=7348&start=91
    http://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=7183&start=894

    > i do not know how much profit X1000 finally generated

    According to Trevor, he "ate" the X1000 NRE costs ("over US$400,000") himself.

    > In business you calculate the price by making a sum of costs, adding profit and then
    > dividing it with calculated sales

    Usually, you can't calculate sales numbers beforehand, just estimate them.

    > I do not think that Trevor D. did it different.

    He said he did with the X1000, but wouldn't do with the X5000 (or A1222, for that matter).
  • »09.06.16 - 12:02
    Profile
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    > [he] wouldn't do with the X5000 (or A1222, for that matter).

    Which will, of course, raise the price of the X5000.
    I can handle that. And I have put some money aside for the P5040 based version.
    The probable increase in cost for Tabor doesn't bode well though.
    Its already an unattractive device, making it expensive could totally kill interest.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »09.06.16 - 12:26
    Profile
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    OlafSch
    Posts: 186 from 2011/11/16
    @Andreas

    The high price of X1000 was without development costs, just part prices and production costs? And yes you can only estimate them (often based on experience) but somehow you must cover your expenses like marketing, sales and development. So based on a estimate you calculate how many devices you must sell that your costs are covered. That is at least how I learned price calculation.

    @Jim

    there was something like £1699 on one of a-eons sheets I think but we will not know propably before you really can preorder. And Tabor is nothing more than embedded hardware running a obscure OS (not to mention the problems in the design). As long as it is not really cheap it will become a failure. I think one of the leading AmigaOS devs mentioned that work on Tabor will not start before X5000 is completed so it does not like there will be anything available in next months and hardware is not becoming better in 2017 or 2018. I hope for Trevor he can afford the losses.

    [ Editiert durch OlafSch 09.06.2016 - 16:43 ]
  • »09.06.16 - 13:37
    Profile
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4977 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    >>I hope for Trevor he can afford the losses.

    Well, he can always recoup some of it by selling Tabor below cost.
    Amiga fanatics will buy anything anyway.

    I still see posts justifying their purchase of those horrid Teron boards.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »09.06.16 - 14:29
    Profile