MorphOS on AmigaOne X5000?
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Zylesea
    Posts: 1943 from 2003/6/4
    While i also don't want it to use a *ix kernel, the idea is not too stupid again. I think Amithlon and the never released Umilator have shown a way to use a Linux kernel for the base job and still keep it Amiga. But I don't favor such a solution. I want the real thing.

    But I would pretty much welcome some drivers optimized for a virtual machine like vmware, parallels or qemu.
    --
    http://www.via-altera.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
    ...and Matthias , my friend - RIP
  • »07.05.16 - 21:30
    Profile Visit Website
  • Leo
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Leo
    Posts: 416 from 2003/8/18
    Using Linux kernel doesn't have to make it another Linux distribution. Look at OS X: the fact it's partially based on BSD kernel doesn't make it a BSD clone.

    The same would go for Linux. I don't understand these false assumptions...

    Of course, the way that AROS chose of being hosted make it this way, but it doesn't have to be.

    [ Edited by Leo 07.05.2016 - 22:40 ]
    Nothing hurts a project more than developers not taking the time to let their community know what is going on.
  • »07.05.16 - 21:39
    Profile Visit Website
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2686 from 2006/3/21
    From: Lake Arrowhead...
    Quote:

    Leo wrote:
    Using Linux kernel doesn't have to make it another Linux distribution. Look at OS X: the fact it's partially based on BSD kernel doesn't make it a BSD clone.

    The same would go for Linux. I don't understand these false assumptions...

    Of course, the way that AROS chose of being hosted make it this way, but it doesn't have to be.


    The voice of "reason" finally! I agree that MorphOS could be based on parts of Linux, without making it just another Linux distro. With recent progress on AROS, or more specifically, AEROS, it runs fairly well and doesn't seem like a "hosted OS". Maybe we will be able to claim that MorphOS for x64 is Amiga and Linux done right!

    Wouldn't it be a great thing for the MorphOS Dev. Team, and all MorphOS users, if MorphOS for x64 could take advantage of most, or all of the Linux drivers for x64 hardware, AND be able to run Linux programs (perhaps with a wrapper, or some other tweak)? I say yes! YES!

    If the MorphOS Dev. Team went this direction, it would save them months, if not years of coding work, and I am confident they can pull it off in a manner that acts like our existing PPC MorphOS3.9, by hiding all user action parts of Linux they use, and replace it with the MorphOS GUI and organization we are all used to and appreciate from our background with Amiga computers. Even if the MorphOS Dev. Team completely changes lots of things that Linux distro's currently use, or have set up a certain way, MAYBE they can still take advantage of Linux drivers, and development tools (perhaps with modifications), and make it easy to run Linux software, or make it easier to port Linux software to MorphOS for x64.

    It will be slower, but someone already pointed out that MorphOS for x64 will be slower no matter what they do, because they will be adding memory protection and hopefully SMP. I believe that the speed of MorphOS for x64 will still seem faster, due to the faster hardware we will be running x64 MorphOS on. An i7 CPU is how many times faster than a 2.7GHz G5? 10x, 20x 50x???

    The MorphOS Dev. Team can work with the AROS developers and take what ever is worthwhile, (if anything) and return perhaps some improved parts back to the AROS programmers and users, if that is possible.

    To my mind, this is the only logical way forward, which would help us stay close to the leading edge of other computer platforms, and also allow faster updates to new hardware, when the initial x64 hardware choices are no longer available. If the MorphOS Dev. Team write all of their own drivers from scratch every time they need to update to newer hardware, it will limit us to fewer choices, and take tons more time, every time the existing hardware becomes unavailable (and in the land of Intel PC's, that seems to happen really fast, like 18 to 24 months).

    This route may also entice some Linux programmers to join our ranks, since the development tools should be familiar, if not exactly the same tools.

    [ Edited by amigadave 07.05.2016 - 16:29 ]
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »07.05.16 - 22:08
    Profile
  • Leo
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Leo
    Posts: 416 from 2003/8/18
    I'm not saying they should go for Linux (or any other open source modern kernel), what I'm saying is that going Linux as the kernel doesn't mean you cannot write an OS that doesn't feel like an Amiga and retains Amiga-like features (MUI, Datatypes, Volumes,...).

    That said, I'd be surprised if they went that way.
    Nothing hurts a project more than developers not taking the time to let their community know what is going on.
  • »08.05.16 - 00:38
    Profile Visit Website
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4881 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Thought I would let this get bounced around a bit, as my inital response was tainted by my emotional reaction to this idea.

    OK, so why not?
    Because, unlike UNIX or Linux, our OS currently uses (quite sucessfully) a microkernel.
    This feature is relatively uncommon as it is most commonly found in OS' used in process control applications.
    It's compact and efficient as opposed to the Linux kernel (which grows in size with each revision).
    And microkernel based OS' are inherently more stable as features that in Linux are incorated into the kernel are often placed outside the kernel in a microkernel OS (where they are less likely to crash the system).

    In short, the kernel we currently use is OURS. It was created by core developer Ralph Schmidt. Its basic design is quite different than a Linux kernel
    It is tight, clean and rather elegant.

    I do NOT favor throwing away core features, that offer a benefit and differentiate us from the masses.

    I could be biased, as the last operating systems I used on the 68K were microkernel based.
    But, there was a big advantage to that in the '80s and '90s, and those bonuses are still there.
    You will NOT hear me join a chorus of voices that would suggest we resort to such a cobbled together hybrid.


    [ Edited by Jim 08.05.2016 - 11:08 ]
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »08.05.16 - 14:03
    Profile
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4881 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Kronos wrote:
    Basing MorphOS_x64 on linux is the easiest and most obvious way
    While we're at it replacing MUI with QT/GTK is the easiest and most obvious way
    Compared to Wayland CGX is crap anyway

    And now, the name "Morph_OS" just sounds stupid, lets replace it with something sensible.

    I propose "Bluehat Linux" !!


    Argh!
    Why not just move to Linux?
    You could just clothe it in a MorphOS theme and be done with it.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »08.05.16 - 14:06
    Profile
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Jupp3
    Posts: 1192 from 2003/2/24
    From: Helsinki, Finland
    Why not base NG MorphOS on TempleOS instead? :-P
  • »08.05.16 - 14:54
    Profile Visit Website
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Yasu
    Posts: 1724 from 2012/3/22
    From: Stockholm, Sweden
    AFAIK all the things needed for a modern kernel is already there in Quark. Sure, you get a lot more drivers in Linux, but will it still be it's own thing? I don't think so. I think it's the same reason why Haiku voted against going for Linux too. It would be less authentic and less original.
    AMIGA FORUM - Hela Sveriges Amigatidning!
    AMIGA FORUM - Sweden's Amiga Magazine!

    My MorphOS blog
  • »08.05.16 - 14:57
    Profile Visit Website
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1066 from 2013/5/24
    From: Federacija Bos...
    As I understand it currently the Quark microkernel is used to boot the hardware and host the A/Box and not much more which isn't too dissimilar to how Amithlon used the Linux kernel.

    Assuming MorphOS NG will be more or less the mythical Q/Box that makes use of the advanced features Quark provides rather than just playing host to another OS like it does now, then there is always the ossibility of adapting Quark to be able to use Linux drivers in a similar fashion to the Genode OS.

    http://genode.org/documentation/release-notes/14.11#Intel_wireless_stack

    [ Edited by Intuition 08.05.2016 - 17:13 ]
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.9

    2.7GHz DP G5, 4GB RAM, 512MB Radeon X1950 Pro, OSX 10.5.8, 500GB SSHD, MorphOS 3.9
  • »08.05.16 - 15:12
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10824 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > going Linux as the kernel doesn't mean you cannot write an OS that
    > doesn't feel like an Amiga

    You got entangled in your negations here :-)
  • »08.05.16 - 18:12
    Profile
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4881 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Linux, TempleOS, Haiku, and GenodeOS, damn.

    How about if MorphOS (NGNG) is based on...MorphOS?
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »08.05.16 - 18:40
    Profile
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Zylesea
    Posts: 1943 from 2003/6/4
    Jim. for sure MorphOS should (and will) be based on MorphOS. But looking to alternative solutions may help to make thr right decisions. Evaluation of these solutions will give a vote on what to do and what not to do.
    As far as I know the history and the developers I ampretty convinced they will not go for a Linux base. But if they eventually did, it would not be the end of the world or MorphOS would instantly beome YALD. It could stay pretty authentic.

    That said I vote for not using a *nix kernel or an other alien kernerl, but let Laire et al do the real hard job themselves ;-)
    --
    http://www.via-altera.de

    Whenever you're sad just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie.
    ...and Matthias , my friend - RIP
  • »08.05.16 - 19:53
    Profile Visit Website
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1066 from 2013/5/24
    From: Federacija Bos...
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Linux, TempleOS, Haiku, and GenodeOS, damn.

    How about if MorphOS (NGNG) is based on...MorphOS?


    You'd not use MorphOS if they added the ability to use Linux drivers to the kernel?
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.9

    2.7GHz DP G5, 4GB RAM, 512MB Radeon X1950 Pro, OSX 10.5.8, 500GB SSHD, MorphOS 3.9
  • »08.05.16 - 20:06
    Profile
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4881 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Zylesea, this is one area where I feel we have a real advantage.
    So my (cough, cough) 'mild' form of fanaticism is on display again.

    Top to bottom, I am really fond of this OS.
    It incorporates some of the best of our legacy OS with ideas that were very cutting edge at the time of its development.

    AND a Linux kernel is philosophically the opposite of our current structure.

    It scares me a little when people suggest we scrap concepts that are a)relatively unique and b)work really well.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »08.05.16 - 20:13
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    amigadave
    Posts: 2686 from 2006/3/21
    From: Lake Arrowhead...
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Zylesea, this is one area where I feel we have a real advantage.
    So my (cough, cough) 'mild' form of fanaticism is on display again.

    Top to bottom, I am really fond of this OS.
    It incorporates some of the best of our legacy OS with ideas that were very cutting edge at the time of its development.

    AND a Linux kernel is philosophically the opposite of our current structure.

    It scares me a little when people suggest we scrap concepts that are a)relatively unique and b)work really well.




    Jim, What I think Intuition and I are trying to say is NOT that we want to switch the kernel to Linux, but if possible, adapt the MorphOS kernel you are so fond of, so it can use Linux drivers. Maybe this is not possible, but until someone more knowledgeable than myself steps into this conversation and says what we are suggesting is about as possible as getting the AmigaOS4.x team and MorphOS team to join forces, I will continue to support the idea of incorporating Linux drivers into x64 MorphOS, to reduce the workload our developers have to do now and in the future.

    It may very well be "pie-in-the-sky" dreaming, by the uneducated concerning OS design (myself), to suggest or wish for a new MorphOS that can somehow also use Linux drivers, and in a perfect world, magically also contain a wrapper, or some other coding to allow us to run Linux software.

    I, like you, also do not wish to have MorphOS turned into anything resembling Linux, but if there is a way to accomplish the above without destroying what MorphOS has been based on from the beginning, it would be great to instantly have the entire Linux software library available, in addition to tools that make writing new MorphOS native software easier.

    Like I said, this is probably impossible, but until I see it written, or hear it spoken from someone I know is likely to have the knowledge to answer this question, I'll remain ignorantly hopeful.

    If I am going to dream, might as well dream big!
    MorphOS - The best Next Gen Amiga choice.
  • »08.05.16 - 21:04
    Profile
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4881 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    They really are radically different types of structure David.
    Many elements incorporated into the Linux kernel don't need to be there.

    Placing essentially all drivers above the kernel (as a microkernel OS would) just makes sense to me.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »08.05.16 - 21:47
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10824 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > Linux, TempleOS, Haiku, and GenodeOS, damn. How about if MorphOS (NGNG)
    > is based on...MorphOS?

    Nobody suggested future MorphOS should be based on Haiku or GenodeOS. And the TempleOS suggestion was an obvious joke.
  • »08.05.16 - 21:53
    Profile
  • Moderator
    Kronos
    Posts: 1969 from 2003/2/24
    @Amigadave

    And what drivers would that be ?

    The interesting parts of the GFX-drivers are in binary blobs and we allready have a quite good base here,

    Basic stuff like IDE/SATA and network doesn't really change that much over time, so it's "just" a matter of adapting existing drivers (and choosing HW where those components are related to ones allready supported).

    Only leaves the real basic stuff, scanning the device tree, setting up the northbridge and so on.
    Don't think twisting a linux-kernel here will lead to optimal results.
    --------------------- May the 4th be with you ------------------
    Mother Russia dance of the Zar, don't you know how lucky you are
  • »08.05.16 - 21:53
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10824 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > The interesting parts of the GFX-drivers are in binary blobs

    Couldn't these be used on MorphOS/x86(-64) with Linux-compatible kernel as well?

    Besides:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_and_open-source_graphics_device_driver#Free_and_open-source_drivers

    > and we allready have a quite good base here

    Nearly as good as the Linux base?
  • »08.05.16 - 22:47
    Profile
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1066 from 2013/5/24
    From: Federacija Bos...
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    They really are radically different types of structure David.
    Many elements incorporated into the Linux kernel don't need to be there.

    Placing essentially all drivers above the kernel (as a microkernel OS would) just makes sense to me.




    Well currently all drivers (Someone correct me if I'm wrong) all drivers in MorphOS run in the same space as the Exec kernel hence the desire to move to using Quark instead.

    Genode uses a microkernel (L4 or a few other options/variants) and everything else including the Intel wireless drivers from Linux run outside of the kernel.

    I don't see why it's an issue for you Jim.
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.9

    2.7GHz DP G5, 4GB RAM, 512MB Radeon X1950 Pro, OSX 10.5.8, 500GB SSHD, MorphOS 3.9
  • »08.05.16 - 23:21
    Profile
  • Jim
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Jim
    Posts: 4881 from 2009/1/28
    From: Delaware, USA
    Quote:

    Intuition wrote:
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    They really are radically different types of structure David.
    Many elements incorporated into the Linux kernel don't need to be there.

    Placing essentially all drivers above the kernel (as a microkernel OS would) just makes sense to me.




    Well currently all drivers (Someone correct me if I'm wrong) all drivers in MorphOS run in the same space as the Exec kernel hence the desire to move to using Quark instead.

    Genode uses a microkernel (L4 or a few other options/variants) and everything else including the Intel wireless drivers from Linux run outside of the kernel.

    I don't see why it's an issue for you Jim.


    I will have to look at that, but they must have really struggled to pull that off.
    And it would not be Linux based.
    Linux IS the monolithic kernel that Linux based OS' run on top of.
    Create an OS with a different kernel and its not Linux.

    Further, do some of you (Andreas?) think we have a developer base that can create an OS that can utilize Linux drivers without simply defaulting to Linux?

    You are asking for an enormous amount of work.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »09.05.16 - 04:24
    Profile
  • Paladin of the Pegasos
    Paladin of the Pegasos
    Intuition
    Posts: 1066 from 2013/5/24
    From: Federacija Bos...
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    Quote:

    Intuition wrote:
    Quote:

    Jim wrote:
    They really are radically different types of structure David.
    Many elements incorporated into the Linux kernel don't need to be there.

    Placing essentially all drivers above the kernel (as a microkernel OS would) just makes sense to me.




    Well currently all drivers (Someone correct me if I'm wrong) all drivers in MorphOS run in the same space as the Exec kernel hence the desire to move to using Quark instead.

    Genode uses a microkernel (L4 or a few other options/variants) and everything else including the Intel wireless drivers from Linux run outside of the kernel.

    I don't see why it's an issue for you Jim.


    I will have to look at that, but they must have really struggled to pull that off.
    And it would not be Linux based.
    Linux IS the monolithic kernel that Linux based OS' run on top of.
    Create an OS with a different kernel and its not Linux.

    Further, do some of you (Andreas?) think we have a developer base that can create an OS that can utilize Linux drivers without simply defaulting to Linux?

    You are asking for an enormous amount of work.


    There's not that many working on Genode and they are mostly CS students and their professors IIRC. Our developers are more than capable I reckon but whether they desire to add this capability is another story. It would be great (for us at least!) if they do though.

    Even adding support for BSD drivers like Haiku and others have done would give us a lot of extra hardware support for "free" and wouldn't be a PITA licence-wise compared to using Linux drivers.


    [ Edited by Intuition 09.05.2016 - 12:38 ]
    1.67GHz 15" PowerBook G4, 1GB RAM, 128MB Radeon 9700M Pro, 64GB SSD, MorphOS 3.9

    2.7GHz DP G5, 4GB RAM, 512MB Radeon X1950 Pro, OSX 10.5.8, 500GB SSHD, MorphOS 3.9
  • »09.05.16 - 10:34
    Profile
  • Yokemate of Keyboards
    Yokemate of Keyboards
    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 10824 from 2003/5/22
    From: Germany
    > they are mostly CS students and their professors IIRC.

    Genode Labs is a commercial company, founded in 2008 as a German GbR and transformed in 2010 into a German GmbH. The founders stem from academic research background.

    http://www.genode-labs.com/company/index?lang=en
  • »09.05.16 - 11:36
    Profile
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Raf_MegaByte
    Posts: 430 from 2004/10/10
    From: Nella grande r...
    Double post

    [ Edited by Raf_MegaByte 09.05.2016 - 15:51 ]
    Bill Gates "Think!", Steve Jobs: "Think different!" So... Let these guy continue blabbering thinking and enjoy computing! We are on Amiga!
  • »09.05.16 - 11:53
    Profile
  • Order of the Butterfly
    Order of the Butterfly
    Raf_MegaByte
    Posts: 430 from 2004/10/10
    From: Nella grande r...
    Quote:

    Leo wrote:
    Using Linux kernel doesn't have to make it another Linux distribution. Look at OS X: the fact it's partially based on BSD kernel doesn't make it a BSD clone.

    The same would go for Linux. I don't understand these false assumptions...

    Of course, the way that AROS chose of being hosted make it this way, but it doesn't have to be.


    But Apple uses XNU Darwin Kernel not a generic Linux kernel, and also they modifies the Kernel for their purposes... It is not a plain *nix kernel anymore.

    BSD parts embedded into OSX provide other functions than Kernel, for example the roundrobin task scheduler in OSX is based upon that original BSD task scheduler.

    Apple also made a great job of adapting the hybrid system born from the mix of BSD + Darwin Kernel to make it appeal as legacy Apple System OS, i.e. the new operating system uses HFS+ filesystem instead of EXT3/4 from linux world, it includes Apple made GUI and windows manager look&feel aspect equal to match legacy System 6/7/8/9 OS versions, in order to make users feel the same experience of their ancient operating systems, and in the end they adapted the naming system of elder MacOS versions and APIs to fit the new hybrid XNU/BSD system they created.

    At these conditions I will accept an Amiga Operating System with an Alien Kernel, that is adapt this alien kernel to use more practical and lightweight Amiga-lookalike Windows Manager, similar to AmigaOS or Ambient, using superior AmigaOS/MorphOS filesystems like ICEFS, and Amiga naming system and Directory Structure (and I intend no crappy linux naming like linux /dev/sda1, dev/sda2, etc, but solid DH0: DH1: etc.,) and human names for directories (like System, Utilities, Devs, that are plain explicative in comparison to Linux developers named for-geeks-only 3 letters like for example USR, Bin, Dev, or 4 letters "Home"...)


    I repeat myself... Only at these conditions that must include a complete "Amigafication" of the hosting kernel I could accept the use of an alien kernel ported into Amiga...

    But if someone plans to make an Amiga environment hosted upon a complete running Linux environment like as with Hosted AROS, with all Linux inherited difficulties that make it unsuitable for end-user and all Linux hydiosincracies, like enormous unusable GUIs (and do not forget the worst: Linux is suitable for geeks only), then if THESE are the plans it is better you bat your hands with a stick renouncing, and thinking twice what you've intended to do...

    @Jim

    That said, I want to add that I agree mostly with Jim when he said we already own Quark Microkernel still waiting for more adoption of its native featueres, deprecating as most as ancient Amiga legacy as possible, that is getting rid of 1,5 Gigabytes RAM limit, 128Megabytes for Videocards RAM limit, and so on...

    [ Edited by Raf_MegaByte 09.05.2016 - 16:11 ]
    Bill Gates "Think!", Steve Jobs: "Think different!" So... Let these guy continue blabbering thinking and enjoy computing! We are on Amiga!
  • »09.05.16 - 11:53
    Profile