@takemehomegrandma

Your opinion.

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Of course. But where do *you* draw the line of vaporware? This started almost seven years ago, more than two “computer generations” ago, and still they haven’t even managed to produce even a prototype? Not to mention no plan, infra structure or financials to reach industrialization and commercialization of the project. The enormous amounts of cash needed to be paid up-front *months* ahead of production start for components etc. Will there be another bounty for that? It would be humongous compared to this little one they are struggling to fulfill. And *should* that happen (which it won’t) you will end up with a laptop product that’s completely unsellable in real numbers due to ridiculous price and poor performance compared to *anything* available on the laptop market when it comes out. And then (many years from now) you would have to try to convince OS and driver developers to put in lots of time (thereby money) to support a product that will sell in double (or single!) digit numbers. Designing and building HW is the quick, cheap and easy part of the equation after all. It’s the software side that is difficult.

[ Edited by takemehomegrandma 06.03.2021 - 07:08 ]

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Of course only an opinion. But this project is just a money grave. In fact I think it's even counterproductive and I encourage all ppl interested in morphos to use the money to Support Software development. The bang for the buck in that Domain is far better.

> chances are the CPU isn’t even manufactured anymore
> and that the price raise is due to that.

NXP claims T2080 availability until 2027, so I don't see this as the likely reason.

> you would have to try to convince OS and driver developers

As far as I understand, the components selection was also driven by their state of Linux driver support. And GNU/Linux is the OS this laptop is primarily aimed at.

> The enormous amounts of cash needed to be paid up-front
> *months* ahead of production start for components etc. [...]
> It would be humongous [...]. [...] building HW is the [...] cheap
> and easy part of the equation after all.

;-)

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Could be a declining stock on a shelf. A limited and declining supply is a logical and common reason for big price increases of old stuff that most certainly was written off a long time ago. Look at the PA6T for example. What other reasons for the price of an old (turning ancient) CPU to *double* is there? A sudden vast increase in demand? Not very likely...

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Tell that to the OS4 users that are obviously waiting for this thing to finish. Software support for the Tabor has “been coming” for almost as long as this futile bounty has been running, and they even had to update the Tabor HW design due to the fact that original components went obsolete/cancelled in the meantime.

>>> you would have to try to convince OS and driver developers

>> As far as I understand, the components selection was also
>> driven by their state of Linux driver support. And GNU/Linux
>> is the OS this laptop is primarily aimed at.

> Tell that to the OS4 users that are obviously waiting for this
> thing to finish.

I'm confident they know about this fact, it's all over the project website after all. If this project will fail, it won't be because of a missing OS4 port or any other missing OS port. GNU/Linux compatibility is a given, as I said, and it's essentially the one OS the project maintainers care about. Everything else will be a bonus.

> Software support for the Tabor has “been coming” for almost
> as long as this futile bounty has been running

Tabor, which has been well supported by Linux for years, is all about OS4. This project is not. It's somewhat weird to see you of all people so fixated on OS4.

I’m personally not the slightest fixated by OS4. But why would *anyone* in the Amiga community care about Linux and Linux drivers? You want a Linux laptop you don’t have to wait, just get out and get one from a shelf in any computer store, and it will be much cheaper and much faster. And not vapor. Of course you know this.

>>> chances are the CPU isn’t even manufactured anymore
>>> and that the price raise is due to that.

>> NXP claims T2080 availability until 2027, so I don't see this as the likely reason.

> Look at the PA6T for example.

The PA6T price significantly increased long after its official discontinuation. To my knowledge, it's not been revealed yet whether A-Eon/Varisys still purchased the PA6T from Apple or from a greedy chip broker at that later point in time.

> What other reasons for the price of an old (turning ancient)
> CPU to *double* is there?

It's no secret that Freescale/NXP want to phase out the Power-based QorIQ chips and have been discouraging designers of new hardware (without legacy compatibility requirements) from using the older Power-based QorIQ chips for years and have instead been recommending their newer ARM-based QorIQ chips. A significant price increase of the older chips is a valid method of increasing the appeal of using the newer chips, I think. That doesn't necessarily mean that the older chips are not being manufactured anymore. In my humble opinion, 2027 is too long in the future for this to be plausible as of now.

> why would *anyone* in the Amiga community care about
> Linux and Linux drivers?

This hardware project is not specifically aimed at the Amiga community. Why would the Linux and free software enthusiasts who are driving this project care about closed-source OS4? You claimed this project would be in need of convincing OS and driver developers, and I told you the hardware essentially already has this in the form of Linux and Linux drivers. You then made this about OS4 for no apparent reason.

> You want a Linux laptop you don’t have to wait, just get out and
> get one from a shelf in any computer store, and it will be much
> cheaper and much faster. And not vapor. Of course you know this.

This project is aimed at the intersection between Power(PC) and GNU/Linux enthusiasts, howsoever tiny. In case you didn't know this, now you do :-) It's also in the posting that started this thread, btw.

> then (many years from now) you would have to try to convince [...]
> driver developers to put in lots of time (thereby money)

"Our notebook motherboard is open to any operating system supporting PowerPC. Among the operating system that could possibly work, there is AmigaOS 4, a closed-source system [...]. [...] Dutch developer H. Kanning (nickname “geen_naam”) announced the availability of an AHI sound driver supporting HD Audio compliant chips, and explicitly supporting the C-MEDIA C8828 that we selected for our motherboard. [...] it was confirmed to actually exists and work, meaning that another operating system is one step closer to being supported."
https://www.powerpc-notebook.org/2021/04/dummy-board-being-finalized/

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Nonsense, its actually quite difficult.
Multilayer boards, SMT components, trace length calculations and trace placement, all complex.

Software is a simpler resource to create.

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Its clearly made for Linux PPC, but clearly, potential users are MOS and OS4 crowd, as "Amiga laptop that newer came to be"

See its OthersOS section of forum
https://forum.powerpc-notebook.org/index.php?board=6.0

But, its team surely cannot fund and provide ports, so end decision will be on Hyperion and MorphOS team, should they include support for it.

> Its clearly made for Linux PPC, but clearly,
> potential users are MOS and OS4 crowd

Yes, exactly my point, see also my comment #208 ("Everything else will be a bonus.")

> as "Amiga laptop that newer came to be"

This laptop is as much "Amiga" as PPC Mac laptops are. Amiga was never about being open source, neither in hardware nor in software. It's a (potential) hardware platform for OS4 and MorphOS, same as PPC Mac laptops, that's about it in terms of "Amiga".

> See its OthersOS section of forum

Yes, there's "Gnu/Linux Distros" section and then "Others OS" section for everything non-Linux. This illustrates perfectly what the priorities are in terms of OS support.

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Absolutely not, PPC Mac laptops has MorphOS support, hence they are relevant to the Amiga community. I can see how OS4 users are dreaming about this since they have nothing in this area. But frankly, look at the state of Hyperion, the legal situation and the ”Tabor support” that has been coming for the last half decade. There is no announced OS4 support for this, right? MorphOS team could perhaps pull it off, but no word that they will. Rather the opposite - don’t buy into somerhing based on hope of future support. No this is all Linux. And a poor choice for Linux on top of that. And still *very much* vapor.

>> This laptop is as much "Amiga" as PPC Mac laptops are.

> Absolutely not, PPC Mac laptops has MorphOS support,
> hence they are relevant to the Amiga community.

To my mind, OS4 on this laptop won't make this laptop an "Amiga", same as MorphOS didn't make PPC Mac laptops "Amigas". Of course, everyone is free to call anything "Amiga", even his Windows PC running WinUAE.

> this is [...] a poor choice for Linux

It's not even a really good choice for Linux on Power(PC).


Edit:

> MorphOS team could perhaps pull it off, but no word that they will.

At least one MorphOS team member has donated to this project very recently. Can you spot him? :-)
(see also comment #146)

[ Edited by Andreas_Wolf 25.10.2021 - 11:04 ]

Update:

> The 10500 EUR for 5 prototypes increased to 12500 EUR for 3 prototypes

Further increased to 13500 EUR:

"we observed a skyrocketing increase of the prices. [...] As a result, every prototype increased its final cost by around 300-320 euro including 22% local VAT, for a total amount of 1000 euros including PayPal fees for the three prototypes. Long story short, we have to increase the campaign goal from 12500 to 13500 euros."
https://www.powerpc-notebook.org/2021/10/prototypes-updates-and-next-talks-october-2021/

As i stated before and it still is valid imho, as long as nobody with a big wallet steps in the whole project is delayed and dragged for more years to come.
The requirement for several funding steps are not a secret and the longer it takes the more expensive it gets.

Well, at least they have raised the money for building the three prototypes…

Last day I was present, as guestm in a web meeting about "state of the job" for the open powerpc notebook.
Acube will realize the motherboard and a port of OS4 is already planned.
The cpu will be T2080@1.8ghz
The audio chipset was choosen among an amiga supported list to facilitate things also for us, first three systems should be done in this year.
There was a slowdown due chip shortage and in conseguence costs are grown.
Critical part of project from a software side are u-boot finalization and linux drvice tree.

Anyway the whole project is heavily focused on linux, AmigaOS port is considered a side effect, at least this was my impression.

Due it's open nature project all is well documented, so a MoprhOS port shuld be easier than others experienced.

> they have raised the money for building the three prototypes

Indeed. So the overall project status in terms of the individual phases is currently as follows:

0. 12600 EUR: Electrical schematics [accomplished]
1A. 19000 EUR: PCB [accomplished]
1B. 5000 EUR: Fast SI bus simulations [accomplished]
2. 13500 EUR: Prototypes [accomplished]
3. 14000 EUR: Testing [open]
4. 12500 EUR: Certification [open]

If they keep their overall pace of 65% accomplishment in 4.3 years (= 15% per year) then it will be done in early 2024.

> Acube will realize the motherboard

Do you mean just the completion of the project phases or also subsequent board production for end users (sold inside the Slimbook chassis, of course)?*

> The audio chipset was choosen among an amiga supported list
> to facilitate things also for us

This would only be possible if a time machine was somehow involved. The Cmedia CM8828 PCIe audio controller with Cmedia CM9882A audio codec were chosen for this project in 2019 (see comment #148), the OS4 driver was initially released only in 2021 (see comment #212).


* Edit: According to this video presentation (27:45) and these slides (both page 33), ACube aims to offer a pre-order of 30 units from a pre-production run.

[ Edited by Andreas_Wolf 03.01.2022 - 12:14 ]

Update:

> overall project status in terms of the individual phases is currently as follows: [...]

0. 12600 EUR: Electrical schematics [accomplished]
1A. 19000 EUR: PCB [accomplished]
1B. 5000 EUR: Fast SI bus simulations [accomplished]
2. 13500 EUR: Prototypes [accomplished]
3. 14000 EUR: Testing [accomplished]
4. 12500 EUR: Certification [21% done]

If they keep their overall pace of 87% accomplishment in 4.9 years (= 18% per year) then it will be done in early 2023.

Besides, the board has been named: Powerboard Tyche
(I preferred Sam2080 for continuity and searchability reasons, btw.)

Update:

> If they keep their overall pace of 87% accomplishment in
> 4.9 years (= 18% per year) then it will be done in early 2023.

It's been accomplished, thanks to a 10,000 EUR donation by a MorphZone member.