PPC Laptop, something for MorphOS?
  • K-L
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    K-L
    Posts: 38 from 2020/11/17
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    @takemehomegrandma

    Your opinion.
    PowerMac G5 2,7 Ghz / Radeon 9650 / MorphOS 3.15
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  • »06.03.21 - 05:48
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2698 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    K-L wrote:
    @takemehomegrandma

    Your opinion.


    Of course. But where do *you* draw the line of vaporware? This started almost seven years ago, more than two “computer generations” ago, and still they haven’t even managed to produce even a prototype? Not to mention no plan, infra structure or financials to reach industrialization and commercialization of the project. The enormous amounts of cash needed to be paid up-front *months* ahead of production start for components etc. Will there be another bounty for that? It would be humongous compared to this little one they are struggling to fulfill. And *should* that happen (which it won’t) you will end up with a laptop product that’s completely unsellable in real numbers due to ridiculous price and poor performance compared to *anything* available on the laptop market when it comes out. And then (many years from now) you would have to try to convince OS and driver developers to put in lots of time (thereby money) to support a product that will sell in double (or single!) digit numbers. Designing and building HW is the quick, cheap and easy part of the equation after all. It’s the software side that is difficult.

    [ Edited by takemehomegrandma 06.03.2021 - 07:08 ]
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »06.03.21 - 07:06
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    Zylesea
    Posts: 2017 from 2003/6/4
    Quote:

    K-L schrieb:
    @takemehomegrandma

    Your opinion.


    Of course only an opinion. But this project is just a money grave. In fact I think it's even counterproductive and I encourage all ppl interested in morphos to use the money to Support Software development. The bang for the buck in that Domain is far better.
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  • »06.03.21 - 07:33
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11445 from 2003/5/22
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    > chances are the CPU isn’t even manufactured anymore
    > and that the price raise is due to that.

    NXP claims T2080 availability until 2027, so I don't see this as the likely reason.
  • »06.03.21 - 11:45
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11445 from 2003/5/22
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    > you would have to try to convince OS and driver developers

    As far as I understand, the components selection was also driven by their state of Linux driver support. And GNU/Linux is the OS this laptop is primarily aimed at.

    > The enormous amounts of cash needed to be paid up-front
    > *months* ahead of production start for components etc. [...]
    > It would be humongous [...]. [...] building HW is the [...] cheap
    > and easy part of the equation after all.

    ;-)
  • »06.03.21 - 12:20
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2698 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > chances are the CPU isn’t even manufactured anymore
    > and that the price raise is due to that.

    NXP claims T2080 availability until 2027, so I don't see this as the likely reason.


    Could be a declining stock on a shelf. A limited and declining supply is a logical and common reason for big price increases of old stuff that most certainly was written off a long time ago. Look at the PA6T for example. What other reasons for the price of an old (turning ancient) CPU to *double* is there? A sudden vast increase in demand? Not very likely...
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »06.03.21 - 13:57
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2698 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    > you would have to try to convince OS and driver developers

    As far as I understand, the components selection was also driven by their state of Linux driver support. And GNU/Linux is the OS this laptop is primarily aimed at.


    Tell that to the OS4 users that are obviously waiting for this thing to finish. Software support for the Tabor has “been coming” for almost as long as this futile bounty has been running, and they even had to update the Tabor HW design due to the fact that original components went obsolete/cancelled in the meantime.
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »06.03.21 - 14:05
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11445 from 2003/5/22
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    >>> you would have to try to convince OS and driver developers

    >> As far as I understand, the components selection was also
    >> driven by their state of Linux driver support. And GNU/Linux
    >> is the OS this laptop is primarily aimed at.

    > Tell that to the OS4 users that are obviously waiting for this
    > thing to finish.

    I'm confident they know about this fact, it's all over the project website after all. If this project will fail, it won't be because of a missing OS4 port or any other missing OS port. GNU/Linux compatibility is a given, as I said, and it's essentially the one OS the project maintainers care about. Everything else will be a bonus.

    > Software support for the Tabor has “been coming” for almost
    > as long as this futile bounty has been running

    Tabor, which has been well supported by Linux for years, is all about OS4. This project is not. It's somewhat weird to see you of all people so fixated on OS4.
  • »06.03.21 - 20:41
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2698 from 2003/2/24
    I’m personally not the slightest fixated by OS4. But why would *anyone* in the Amiga community care about Linux and Linux drivers? You want a Linux laptop you don’t have to wait, just get out and get one from a shelf in any computer store, and it will be much cheaper and much faster. And not vapor. Of course you know this.
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »06.03.21 - 21:52
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11445 from 2003/5/22
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    >>> chances are the CPU isn’t even manufactured anymore
    >>> and that the price raise is due to that.

    >> NXP claims T2080 availability until 2027, so I don't see this as the likely reason.

    > Look at the PA6T for example.

    The PA6T price significantly increased long after its official discontinuation. To my knowledge, it's not been revealed yet whether A-Eon/Varisys still purchased the PA6T from Apple or from a greedy chip broker at that later point in time.

    > What other reasons for the price of an old (turning ancient)
    > CPU to *double* is there?

    It's no secret that Freescale/NXP want to phase out the Power-based QorIQ chips and have been discouraging designers of new hardware (without legacy compatibility requirements) from using the older Power-based QorIQ chips for years and have instead been recommending their newer ARM-based QorIQ chips. A significant price increase of the older chips is a valid method of increasing the appeal of using the newer chips, I think. That doesn't necessarily mean that the older chips are not being manufactured anymore. In my humble opinion, 2027 is too long in the future for this to be plausible as of now.
  • »06.03.21 - 22:04
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11445 from 2003/5/22
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    > why would *anyone* in the Amiga community care about
    > Linux and Linux drivers?

    This hardware project is not specifically aimed at the Amiga community. Why would the Linux and free software enthusiasts who are driving this project care about closed-source OS4? You claimed this project would be in need of convincing OS and driver developers, and I told you the hardware essentially already has this in the form of Linux and Linux drivers. You then made this about OS4 for no apparent reason.

    > You want a Linux laptop you don’t have to wait, just get out and
    > get one from a shelf in any computer store, and it will be much
    > cheaper and much faster. And not vapor. Of course you know this.

    This project is aimed at the intersection between Power(PC) and GNU/Linux enthusiasts, howsoever tiny. In case you didn't know this, now you do :-) It's also in the posting that started this thread, btw.
  • »06.03.21 - 22:18
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11445 from 2003/5/22
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    > then (many years from now) you would have to try to convince [...]
    > driver developers to put in lots of time (thereby money)

    "Our notebook motherboard is open to any operating system supporting PowerPC. Among the operating system that could possibly work, there is AmigaOS 4, a closed-source system [...]. [...] Dutch developer H. Kanning (nickname “geen_naam”) announced the availability of an AHI sound driver supporting HD Audio compliant chips, and explicitly supporting the C-MEDIA C8828 that we selected for our motherboard. [...] it was confirmed to actually exists and work, meaning that another operating system is one step closer to being supported."
    https://www.powerpc-notebook.org/2021/04/dummy-board-being-finalized/
  • »18.04.21 - 21:58
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  • Jim
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    Jim
    Posts: 4955 from 2009/1/28
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    Quote:

    Designing and building HW is the quick, cheap and easy part of the equation after all. It’s the software side that is difficult.


    Nonsense, its actually quite difficult.
    Multilayer boards, SMT components, trace length calculations and trace placement, all complex.

    Software is a simpler resource to create.
    "Never attribute to malice what can more readily explained by incompetence"
  • »21.04.21 - 07:42
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  • vox
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    vox
    Posts: 472 from 2003/11/25
    From: Belgrade
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:
    This hardware project is not specifically aimed at the Amiga community. Why would the Linux and free software enthusiasts who are driving this project care about closed-source OS4? You claimed this project would be in need of convincing OS and driver developers, and I told you the hardware essentially already has this in the form of Linux and Linux drivers. You then made this about OS4 for no apparent reason.



    Its clearly made for Linux PPC, but clearly, potential users are MOS and OS4 crowd, as "Amiga laptop that newer came to be"

    See its OthersOS section of forum
    https://forum.powerpc-notebook.org/index.php?board=6.0

    But, its team surely cannot fund and provide ports, so end decision will be on Hyperion and MorphOS team, should they include support for it.
    ------------------------------------------
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  • »22.04.21 - 18:00
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11445 from 2003/5/22
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    > Its clearly made for Linux PPC, but clearly,
    > potential users are MOS and OS4 crowd

    Yes, exactly my point, see also my comment #208 ("Everything else will be a bonus.")

    > as "Amiga laptop that newer came to be"

    This laptop is as much "Amiga" as PPC Mac laptops are. Amiga was never about being open source, neither in hardware nor in software. It's a (potential) hardware platform for OS4 and MorphOS, same as PPC Mac laptops, that's about it in terms of "Amiga".

    > See its OthersOS section of forum

    Yes, there's "Gnu/Linux Distros" section and then "Others OS" section for everything non-Linux. This illustrates perfectly what the priorities are in terms of OS support.
  • »22.04.21 - 20:59
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    takemehomegrandma
    Posts: 2698 from 2003/2/24
    Quote:

    Andreas_Wolf wrote:

    > as "Amiga laptop that newer came to be"

    This laptop is as much "Amiga" as PPC Mac laptops are.


    Absolutely not, PPC Mac laptops has MorphOS support, hence they are relevant to the Amiga community. I can see how OS4 users are dreaming about this since they have nothing in this area. But frankly, look at the state of Hyperion, the legal situation and the ”Tabor support” that has been coming for the last half decade. There is no announced OS4 support for this, right? MorphOS team could perhaps pull it off, but no word that they will. Rather the opposite - don’t buy into somerhing based on hope of future support. No this is all Linux. And a poor choice for Linux on top of that. And still *very much* vapor.
    MorphOS is Amiga done right! :-)
    MorphOS NG will be AROS done right! :-)
  • »22.04.21 - 23:48
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11445 from 2003/5/22
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    >> This laptop is as much "Amiga" as PPC Mac laptops are.

    > Absolutely not, PPC Mac laptops has MorphOS support,
    > hence they are relevant to the Amiga community.

    To my mind, OS4 on this laptop won't make this laptop an "Amiga", same as MorphOS didn't make PPC Mac laptops "Amigas". Of course, everyone is free to call anything "Amiga", even his Windows PC running WinUAE.

    > this is [...] a poor choice for Linux

    It's not even a really good choice for Linux on Power(PC).


    Edit:

    > MorphOS team could perhaps pull it off, but no word that they will.

    At least one MorphOS team member has donated to this project very recently. Can you spot him? :-)

    [ Edited by Andreas_Wolf 13.09.2021 - 19:53 ]
  • »23.04.21 - 23:49
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    Andreas_Wolf
    Posts: 11445 from 2003/5/22
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    Update:

    > The 10500 EUR for 5 prototypes increased to 12500 EUR for 3 prototypes

    Further increased to 13500 EUR:

    "we observed a skyrocketing increase of the prices. [...] As a result, every prototype increased its final cost by around 300-320 euro including 22% local VAT, for a total amount of 1000 euros including PayPal fees for the three prototypes. Long story short, we have to increase the campaign goal from 12500 to 13500 euros."
    https://www.powerpc-notebook.org/2021/10/prototypes-updates-and-next-talks-october-2021/
  • »23.10.21 - 13:46
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