@gibs

Since it seems there are still window shadows, i'd say you're still running with enhanced display (= 3d layers = composition) enabled.

Anyway, here are a few videos of OSX and MorphOS using the same browser "test" case, and another comparing mplayer.

http://fabportnawak.free.fr/sillytest/

As you can see, it's far from your video on MorphOS. And even funnier, OSX isn't even faster than MorphOS, even though OSX has quite an advantage with both Safari and FireFox, since they both have hardware accelerated rendering, unlike OWB (and in this kind of site with a static background, it should in theory make a huge difference in scrolling and resizing).

Regarding the mplayer test, the result is quite self-explanatory:
OSX MPlayer needs 34s to play that 20s clip, while MPlayer MorphOS plays it in 20s (it can actually play it in 17s when throttling).

[ Edited by Fab on 2009/12/25 2:33 ]

@ gibs

Quote:

Hardly anybody would be happy with that. However, the issue is that you failed to disable the enhanced display engine mode as has been suggested to you multiple times.

The fact that the windows have shadows in your video clearly proves this because window shadows are disabled unless the enhanced display engine mode is in use.


Quote:

I have nothing against you, but you appear to be not very thorough, yet fast to judge others.


Quote:

I think Fabien's videos illustrate quite well that the performance of MorphOS is hardly disappointing when compared to MacOS running on the same hardware.

What you say? Is a Radeon 9200 with 32MB vram not enough for a huge composited desktop? Who'd thuink. :)

Seriously though, even on 64MB the higher resolutions can be taxing with many windows open but that's to be expected really. I've switched to 16bit colordepth and it flies, even handles multiple high(-ish) resolution videos with any stuttering or problems.

@gibs:

I cannot say whether this is 16 bit or not, but enhanced display is enabled in the video. You're asking too much form a machine with as little as 32 or 64 MB of vmem. The performance loss is due to the fact that the window backbuffers no longer fit in the video memory and have to be copied back and forth using the CPU. Either lower your screen resolution or disable enhanced display. The recommended amount of vmem for enhanced display is 128MB.

@ASiegel

I didn't failed. Morphos failed ! the "enhanced display" was disabled and validate.

I haven't judge anybody. Here you criticize, OSX with an OS that look like WIN98. It's not fair.
You asked me to disable "enhanced display" to realize that the OS was faster than OSX. but do you know that
You can do same things on OSX ?
Believe me if you disable all stuff in OSX, it's more faster than you think. but if you think that Morphos is better than OSX I can deal with that. That's not a problem for me.
Fabien's videos illustrate that he had to disable lot of things and in this case his browser doesn't display the same content if the website (I'm talking about the flash video content). it's aptly named.
For the mplayer performance, I agree that the MOS one is faster...but as you may know mplayer is not often updated on OSX...again I can deal that mplayer is faster on morphos but...
What I said earlier is that the desktop "the finder" was more smooth on OSX and as example I said the moving of the windows. And of course the desktop seems "cheap" on morphos. less colors. less functionality...etc

Again, I'm sorry but from what I've seen, I'm not convinced to put 150? on that !!!

Well, something failed, since you're still using enhanced display.

Quote:

Uh? I can make the video again with Flash enabled on MorphOS (or disabled on OSX) if you want, that won't make a big difference in scrolling or resizing (remember i resized an area where no flash content was displayed).

Quote:

Less colours? You run the Finder in 64bits colours or what? MorphOS was running in 32bits, in any case.
And about functionality, well, Finder isn't exactly feature-rich when it comes to basic file management.
And regarding smoothness, i guess we don't see the same thing.


[ Edited by Fab on 2009/12/25 22:10 ]

@ gibs

Quote:

You have accused others of not being impartial ("objective" is the word you used) when they are evaluating MorphOS. Irregardless of whether you admit it or not, this is judging people.


Quote:

That statement is in very bad taste. Even when the enhanced display mode is disabled, the MorphOS UI is somewhere between Windows XP and Windows Vista/7 in terms of graphics effects, etc.

Not liking the default theme, which can be altered in a multitude of ways by users without installing third-party software as is required on certain other operating systems that shall remain unnamed, is one thing, suggesting that MorphOS looks like Windows 98 is something else entirely.


Quote:

You appear to have a very simplistic view of the world. This is not about "My OS is better than yours. Period." (i.e. MorphOS is better than MacOS). Each operating systems has strengths and weaknesses. Whether an operating system is right for you depends on your individual preferences and requirements.

Some people own a single car and that's it. Other people own an SUV to drive to work and to buy groceries, a convertible for weekend trips and a motorbike for road trips in the summer. These people enjoy the different handling of these vehicles and feel mentally stimulated when they are not using the same car every day and are able to experience their environment in different ways.

Considering the growing importance of computers in our everyday lifes, using different operating systems might add even more spice to your life than driving two different types of cars.


Quote:

About the "less colors" remark, you are obviously confusing things. It was suggested to you to either disable the enhanced display mode or reduce the color depth to 16bit and keep the enhanced display mode enabled. Fabien used 32bits when he recorded his videos.

As has been mentioned numerous times in this thread, the enhanced display mode requires a lot of memory. This is not different on many other operating systems either. Compiz requires at least 64MB of graphics memory (see compiz.org) and Microsoft says that 128MB of graphics memory are required to run either Vista or Windows 7 with 'Aero' (the Windows enhanced display mode) being enabled.

Regarding the desktop having less functionality... The Mac Finder is widely known to be light on functionality, which was obviously a design decision but is not appreciated by many power users. Ambient, the MorphOS desktop and file manager, has quite a lot of features, even obscure ones, and offers many configuration options to those who like to have the freedom to adapt system settings to meet their personal needs.

Quote:

that's an elegant way to say you don't have anything more to argue : ) (kidding)
don't worry, we're still far from the Apple fanboyism here, where everyone says "wow" once there's an apple printed on anything. It is known that MorphOS users are not as amiga-fanatic than OS4 users. We don't care about the brand, we care about the performance.
Now we still want to talk, don't close a convo because we don't agree, it's pretty sane actually to argue.
Merry christmas (late) to you too.

I have more than you think to argue...but if we end stop now I don't know were this discuss is going to lead...well...but it seems you want to pushing me because you like this kind of virtual fight...
Everybody is free to do what they want to do, and I respect your choices, but for me 150 is too much expensive for an OS that is composed of 80% GNU. More than this, it don't feed my needs.
I admit that my vision is far from people here, and I have nothing to do here.

Yes, it's quite interesting to continue that discussion (which you label as fight), because you throw interesting misconceptions, just like this latest pearl: MorphOS is 80% GNU. Could you elaborate on this? :)

(and what about OSX and its "BSD" kernel, by the way? :))

A few years ago there were some voices saying MorphOS is just stolen AmigaOS recompiled for PowerPC. Now we hear it's mainly GNU? Fun!!1

I'll paste your nice email here, because it's really entertaining (sorry, it's in French).

Quote:

So you say i'm unable to list the GNU parts in OSX (i didn't plan to), but on the other hand you completely failed at reading the relevant files in the docs/ directory in MorphOS and yet you throw us a 80% figure out of the blue. Well done.

Now do your homework and go read in docs/, and do the math after that (and also avoid to mix all licenses, too).


[ Edited by Fab on 2009/12/26 17:33 ]

This starts to smell a troll

kickstart, I replied by MP to fab to avoid to troll and because we speak the same langage, and maybe it's easier to understand what we means. but it seems that fab wants to continu here by pasting my message :(

fab, why don't you reply by mail ? (as you pasted it on my MP there was a smiley)
you took things too seriously ...

This discussion was started here, so i think it's better to conclude it here.

So just to be clear, i don't care if you prefer OSX for whatever reason, and i surely won't try to change your opinion, but I don't like it when something really wrong is left unanswered (like this 80% GNU figure, for instance).

And more generally, OSX is surely better in several areas (what a surprise really, for such a big company), but you're just wrong when you claim it's better or faster everywhere.

Ok I did a video showing both OS running E-UAE. I use the SDL version on both OS.

OSX 10.5 is runing on a iBook G4 1,2 Ghz 768MB of RAM
MOS is running on a Mac Mini G4 1,33 Ghz 1GB of RAM

Note that I use a faster computer for MOS. Not because of 13 Mhz of differences, but also because the FSB Mac mini is at 166Mhz while it's 133Mhz on the iBook.

The game for the test is : OSCAR AGA.


On Morphos I use the config file from the "Obligement" website. I also use the Fab's launch script.

Note that the config file's sound is set at 22khz on MOS while it is at 44 khz on OSX.
I also have disabled the "ehanced display" on morphos (this time with success) and it's running 16bits.
OSX is running in 32 bits.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1566495/MOS/P1020049.mp4
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1566495/MOS/P1020050.mp4

As you can see, the game is running at 75% on OSX while MOS eat 100% of CPU.
Most of the ECS games are running with 50% of CPU under OSX but 100% under MOS.

I didn't tried to fake something is this test, and I'm open to verify some settings and config files. I'm also open to do other videos. I just want to show that my faith was good while I was saying earlier that EUAE/OSX was outrunning EUAE/MOS a few days ago...

But if you are still thinking that I'm the evil, I can leave the forum.


[ Edited by gibs on 2009/12/27 6:02 ]

Good try, but different conditions actually...

On MorphOS, you ran a config file that emulates the CPU at the maximum speed (cpu_speed = max), so the CPU will of course always be at 100%. To match what you did on OSX, you'd need to use cpu_speed = real.
Then on MorphOS, you also ran the SDL version, in a rescaled mode, so that's even more unfavorable since it's rescaled with CPU (and blitted with SDL which isn't that optimal either). Try the *non* SDL version in native resolution (640x256) with overlay output (amiga.use_overlay=true), so that it can be resized at will, and then you'll have much better performance.

With all these options, most ECS games would run at about 50% CPU (and that's on my pegasos2), so it would likely be 40% on the Mac.

On OSX, maybe you even used the OpenGL mode which would be an additional advantage for OSX (but i can't really tell from this video), compared to MorphOS running in plain software mode.

Here's what it gives on my mac mini 1.42GHz :
http://fabportnawak.free.fr/sillytest/morphos_uae.mpg
with http://fabportnawak.free.fr/sillytest/A1200-hires.conf (sound is at 44kHz/16bits/stereo)

In conclusion, 50% CPU on MorphOS during the intro, against 75% on your mac (which is less fast than my mini, of course).




[ Edited by Fab on 2009/12/27 5:15 ]

Indeed, I put cpu_speed =real (on MOS) and it use less CPU (but I think it's about 75% too)

But I want to show you that I didn't cheat with this setting. Here is a video showing this setting before launching EUAE...(Again, remember that the FSB is 133Mhz on the iBook and only 1,2Ghz)

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1566495/MOS/P1020052.mp4

I only have the libsdl (and yes there's an eperimental OpenGL renderer) version on OSX, and I don't know why I would use an older one which is slower and I cannot found. Even the version I am using is 3 years old.
like it's said on www.rcdrummond.net :
E-UAE-0.8.29-WIP4 released
"Here at last. Lots of bug fixes, better performance and an experimental OpenGL renderer in the SDL back-end - which, incidentally, makes E-UAE fly on Mac OS X. Grab the binaries below while they're still warm. Yummy!"

I think that in order to compare both OS with UAE, I need to re-install OSX on my 1,33ghz Mini and I would compare both sdl version except if you think that it's unfair. (I don't think it is, again, the osx version as been compiled 3 years ago).
A+

[ Edited by gibs on 2009/12/27 8:52 ]

It just shows that e-uae osx port is buggy and ignores that cpu_speed setting. cpu_speed=max would use as much CPU as it can (which is useful for more demanding AGA games, for instance), instead of limiting itself to a 68020@14MHz.

Now, if you want to make a fair comparison, you have two possibilities:
1. disable GL output in OSX (so that OSX also rescales with CPU like the MorphOS version)
2. use the non SDL version on MorphOS and enable overlay output

If you prefer to compare optimal solutions, then choose 2.


[ Edited by Fab on 2009/12/27 15:13 ]

> the osx version as been compiled 3 years ago

There's a newer one there:

http://www.rcdrummond.net/uae/test/20080815/

@Fab
If you look at my MOS/Oscar Video, the clouds doesn't seems smoother (cpu_speed=max) so maybe this setting is not really usefull.
I have just started Oscar on my CD32, the clouds are smoother: The game is running at the VBL (50fps).
Unfortunately I can't record a video at this framerate. I can only record at 30fps. But here is what it looks like: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1566495/MOS/CD32.mp4
Unfortunately your video showing Oscar is running at 25fps and the scrolling is the worst on all videos.


Why is there no OpenGL/MESA support on MorphOS ?

@Andreas_Wolf
Thanks

[ Edited by gibs on 2009/12/27 17:27 ]

That setting is useful for games that required more than a 68020 (say Frontier, for instance).

About the smoothness, i can't comment about your case since it wasn't done in optimal conditions (SDL+rescaled), but here, it doesn't skip any frame, at least.

Then if you want a perfectly smooth display (be it MorphOS or OSX or whatever), it also requires video synchronization and a proper screen frequency being multiple of 50Hz (or 60 in NTSC). But these videos can't show that, anyway.

And there is OpenGL on MorphOS, it's just that it doesn't help to use it in UAE case, compared to overlay output. On the other hand, on OSX, OpenGL output definitely helps compared to the standard drawing output that is way slower than OpenGL (which is really not normal at all, IMO).

@Fab

I have e-uae-0.8.29-WIP3 SDL version working with overlay-output by using (amiga.use_overlay=true) in the config.

> The Ferox skin [...] has been imitated by themes for various other operating systems
> including Linux

Indeed, the latest one being AmiPUP, a Slacko Puppy Linux derivative by Kenneth "klesterjr" Lester.

http://www.watchkendraw.com/images/miscl/amipup_screenshot_5.png
http://a.fsdn.com/con/app/proj/amipup/screenshots/amipup_screenshot_5.png
http://sourceforge.net/projects/amipup/
http://watchkendraw.com/?p=738
https://archive.org/details/Puppy_Linux_amipup

blah fasel