> we have nothing to worry regarding any potential video card upgrades. Even the
> Pegasos would support the cards we've been discussing.

Mind you that the discussion half a year ago didn't have a real outcome. The Pegasos II manual states both AGP 2.0 (which would mean 1.5 V) and 3.3 V, which is contradictory. My take on this is that the real specs of the Pegasos II are AGP 1.0, 3.3 V, 1x speed. That would mean the Pegasos II is in the same boat as the older PowerMacs G4, i.e. a specific AGP 3.0 card may or may not run.

Since the Pegasos ignores a video card's onboard BIOS, would an Apple video card work just as well as a PC variant?
If so, then the 2x/4x Radeon 9800 should work in the Pegasos.

It would be nice to keep this legacy machine up to date, rather than see it completely supplanted by Apple hardware.

Quote:

Actually, Pegasos' OF does not ignore video card's onboard BIOS. In fact, it emulates x86 in order to run the card's BIOS so that the card initializes itself - MorphOS drivers rely on that (meaning we didn't have to write all the init code for all the various supported models).

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Impressed, but not surprised! A combination that guarantees a big smile of pleasure.

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Sure? And bus/memory bandwidth?

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Indeed. In fact, wasn't it that only ONE ever existed, in the hands of Gunne Steen, of GGS Data?

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Here the software (driver) problem is expanded with the bigger, hardware problem: Actually, we'd better forget about adding support for dead old AGP cards. By the time you reach it, the cards will be impossible to obtain. Let's support current PCI-e cards. Here's one. What? Where'e the thing this plugs into?

Solution? Choose computers with built-in graphics functions, like the Mac Mini. What a pleasant coincidence, it even has a familiar Radeon chip...

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It's more than frightening, it's USUAL! And yet Andreas insists in making us believe he is a human being...

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So, in the MacMini, the graphics chip is left in the same initialized state as the Pegasos (and Efika) SmartFirmware leaves it? Or does MorphOS 2.5 on MacMini use a different driver for a very similar graphis chip?

@Andreas_Wolf
opsss :) corrected :)

@Jim
Adreas has told you all about AGP :)
here some simple exemples

1) ATI 9800 XT OK for 2x AGP slots and also for 4x AGP slots
http://themacelite.wikidot.com/local--files/flasher-s-buying-guide-9800/9800pro.jpg

2) ATI 9800 XT OK only for 4x AGP slots
http://themacelite.wikidot.com/local--files/flasher-s-buying-guide-9800/9800xt.jpg

3) ATI HD AGP are OK only for 4x AGP slots, but It's needed a flash ROM Macintosh.

> the Pegasos ignores a video card's onboard BIOS

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7094&forum=11&post_id=73216#73216
https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7094&forum=11&post_id=73225#73225

> wasn't it that only ONE ever existed, in the hands of Gunne Steen, of GGS Data?

The only one ever existing "in the wild", yes, I think so. He even ran the web server for his shop (and pegasos.org?) on that machine.

> we'd better forget about adding support for dead old AGP cards. By the time you
> reach it, the cards will be impossible to obtain. Let's support current PCI-e cards.
> Here's one. What? Where'e the thing this plugs into? Solution?

Radeon gfx cards vendors usually have been providing some of their PCIe based Radeon GPU based cards also with AGP and even PCI connectors (via on-card PCIe-to-AGP/PCI bridge obviously). For instance these:

http://www.hisdigital.com/un/product1-47.shtml (AGP up to HD4670 (RV730))
http://www.hisdigital.com/un/product1-48.shtml (PCI up to HD4350 (RV710))
http://www.diamondmm.com/AGP-Video-Cards.php (AGP up to HD4650 (RV730))
http://www.club3d.nl/products/product_graphics_1.cfm (AGP up to HD4670 (RV730), PCI up to HD4350 (RV710))
http://graphics.visiontek.com/video/3000/3000.html (AGP up to HD3850 (RV670))
http://graphics.visiontek.com/video/2000/2000.html (PCI up to HD2400 (RV610))
http://www.sapphiretech.com/presentation/product/?cid=1&psn=000101&gid=4 (AGP up to HD4650 (RV730))
http://www.powercolor.com/global/products_search_VGA.asp?Bus=AGP (AGP up to HD4670 (RV730))
http://www.powercolor.com/global/products_search_VGA.asp?Bus=PCI (PCI up to HD4350 (RV710))

> Choose computers with built-in graphics functions, like the Mac Mini. What a
> pleasant coincidence, it even has a familiar Radeon chip...

I fail to see the advantage regarding GPU support there. Any computer without built-in graphics functions but with AGP or PCI slots could be equipped with for instance a Radeon 9200 card. And you even have the chance to use up to R700 GPU family based cards (see above), driver issues aside that is. With built-in graphics functions (and no AGP/PCI) you cannot upgrade the GPU in any way.
Btw, I believe Mac mini G4 was chosen *because* it had already supported Radeon (among other already supported or rather easy to support things), not the other way round.

I am not sure that that arguing for supporting only built-in video is a good idea, it leaves us with relatively weak GPUs.
As to whether or not we have the CPU power, I used to use a Radeon 9500Pro on a 1 Ghz Athlon XP. I don't think G4 PPCs with similar or faster clock rates would have any problem handling the 9500/9700/9800. Also, if you scan Ebay, you'll find these cards are quite common. They're as easily obtainable as the other Radeons currently supported.
As to Andreas mention of even more advanced ATI cards, I didn't dare to bring those up because I was afraid that I'd be asking too much.
I have a Diamond 4650 AGP video card in an AM2 motherboard in own. It's a remarkable board and the 3850 Andreas mentioned is actually slightly more capable.
Even the 3650 (also available in AGP) isn't a bad card. It bests an Nvidia 6800 in most benchmarks.
There are a lot of good ATI based AGP video cards out there and the prices are quite reasonable.
I only mentioned the 9800 family because it ought to be the easiest to implement.
But Andreas is right. We don't need to worry about not having systems that support PCIe.
many manufacturers still produce up to date AGP cards.

@jim

first step has benn made : Mac Mini G4, EMac G4, incoming PowerMac G4.

I think (hope) we'll see one day driver 2D and 3D for Ati radeon 9800, 9700 ... these cards if correctly supported are very powerful for "Amiga World", and few of them usable also in Pegasos AGP 2x and old PowerMac G4 AGP 2x, and all of them usable in newer PowerMac G4.
The "x86" versions of these cards need also a flash ROM update Macintosh to be used in PowerMac.

More difficult are ATI HD AGP ... only usable with newer PowerMac G4, but It's needed to create a right ROM Macintosh ... not so easy I think.

regards


[ Edited by Divinity on 2010/7/22 17:48 ]

> many manufacturers still produce up to date AGP cards.

That's what *has been* the case. Let's see if HD5000 series ("Evergreen"/R800) will also come with AGP/PCI models. I've yet to spot one.

> Pegasos AGP 2x

As I wrote, Pegasos II has AGP 1x only. AGP 2x cards run at 1x speed in Pegasos II.

> More difficult are ATI HD AGP [...] It's needed to create a right
> ROM Macintosh ... not so easy I think.

Yes, that would be an obstacle which would have to be overcome from within MorphOS I think, if possible at all.

I'm not sure you will see the HD5000 on an AGP card. Currently the 4650 and 4670 are hard pressed to keep up with the older 3850 AGP cards. And manufacturers are aware that motherboards supporting AGP usually do not have support for the more recent/powerful CPUs.
I have one exception I use at home. It's an odd Asrock design that uses the Nforce3 250 chipset (which has an AGP slot), but the board will accept Am2, Am2+, and AM3 processors. I've also seen a few Core 2 boards with AGP slots.
But, the manufacturers of today's higher end AGP video cards don't want to see the buyer's systems CPU bound, so they generally pick GPUs that are a few steps down from the top of the line.
Believe me, were MorphOS to support HD3650 or 4560 video cards the improvement in fps would be amazing (several times that of our current cards).
GPUs above that level would probably not be beneficial as they would be CPU bound.

Divinity has a point too. Converting 9800 series cards to Mac compatibility is fairly easy. As I don't know where you'd get a G4 compatible video card BIOS for these higher end cards, we might have to come up with a different solution to using them.
Perhaps, if MorphOS was installed with a currently compatible card and the drivers loaded for the new card. Once the computer was restarted (with the new video card) MorphOS could access the card w/o an Apple BIOS.

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I know :) but used the name "AGP 2x" only for the voltage :)

> I know :) but used the name "AGP 2x" only for the voltage :)

Then why not use the proper term "AGP 1.0"? That would include 1x as well as 2x speed, both at 3.3 V.

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I don't think so. For a start, you need another computer to reflash the card, and it must have a compatible slot.

It's a new burden anyway, yet another hurdle for users that can put them away MorphOS. Of course, the PowerMac usually comes with the video card. But perhaps there's some with its video card missing, because it was a rare item, sold separately.

Which brings up the case of setting up a (admittedly very small) business of making and selling refurbished computers with MorphOS, instead of the very entertaining (and mandatory) do-it-yourself that forms part of our history.

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Afaik Mac cards have their ROM that does the init.

@jcmarcos

here the flash ROM I have made time ago for PowerMac FW800/MDD and Quicksilver

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6893&forum=3#70868

> the PowerMac usually comes with the video card. But perhaps there's some with its
> video card missing, because it was a rare item, sold separately.

Much more numerous than supported PowerMacs G4 without video card will be supported PowerMacs G4 with unsupported video card (nVidia).

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I guess some people just think of your "hurdles" as a challenge. I've always enjoyed working on my own hardware. In fact, I've never owned a pre-assembled computer. Currently, my Powermac has a flashed Sapphire Radeon 9250 with 256MB of memory. It took less than an hour to convert it and it has four times the memory of the Apple Radeon 9000Pro it replaced (which was failing at the time).

However, that's not really the point. Apple ready Radeon 9800Pro cards already exist. There's no modification necessary. Now if you consider swapping out video cards a "hurdle" you might want to re-read Andreas' post. Most later Powermacs came with Nvidia video cards and Apple Radeon 9000 pros are getting harder to find, the prices they're commanding is too high, and they only have 64MB of memory. If you have to (or want to) swap out your Powermac video card, a Radeon 9800 Pro is often no more expensive to obtain than a 9000Pro.

You keep coming up with objections, but I fail understand the reasons for your negativity. As a plug in upgrade, the Radeon 9800Pro is ideal. And if a few of you (who enjoy hacking) want to modify PC video cards how is that a hurdle? It's our choice and we're already doing it with currently supported cards.

> Most later Powermacs came with Nvidia video cards

I don't know about the sales shares between the different models of the corresponding PowerMac G4 generations, but I can say that two of the three FW800 variants as well as two of the three MDD variants came with Radeon cards. In my answer to jcmarcos I just said that it's much more probable to spot a supported PowerMac G4 with an nVidia card than a supported PowerMac G4 with no video card at all. But spotting a supported PowerMac G4 with a Radeon card is still the most probable of the three possibilities I guess.

at the moment I have ready for PowerMac G4 and MorphOS 2.6 two cards:
- ATI Radeon 9000 pro (64Mb vram) original for Apple Mac
- ATI Radeon 9250 (256Mb vram) flashed

It's more powerful the ATI Radeon 9000 pro, but less memory ... I think I'll use the ATI 9250 in MorphOS, I prefear to have 128Mb vram in MorphOS... but a day I'd like to use an ATI 9800 pro 256Mb or ATI 9800 XT 256Mb

> Most later Powermacs came with Nvidia video cards

Sorry, I can't support that statement, its just based on my perception of the units currently available on the market.
One problem with Powermacs is that the users really don't appear to know or to care whether they have an Nvidia or ATI video card. While some older Powermacs came with ATI Rage128 based video cards, later Powermacs usually have either an ATI Radeon 9000 Pro or an Nvidia Geforce 2 MX200 based video card. To a MacOS user these cards offer about the same features and performance.
Of course, for a MorphOS user the Nvidia cards are useless (no available drivers). So when buying a used Powermac we have to check the listing and if the video card isn't listed contact the seller.

I bought my Powermac w/o a video card, memory, or hard drive. I bought a unit that was untested (I already had a motherboard). When I got the unit, I found that the CPU card wasn't properly seated. After correcting that, the unit worked perfectly.
I sort of lucked out buying an Apple Radeon 9000 Pro as well. I got it for under $20 (with shipping). I'd be hard pressed to find another at that price (and the one I bought failed after about one month).

While I understand that many MorphOS users don't want to assemble or modify their hardware, there are quite a few of us that get a kick out of it. Since the late 80's I've assembled all my own PCs and while Apple's aren't typical hacker oriented machines, I've found them very easy to work on. The Powermac's single latch to open the case and its well laid out design makes servicing it easier than most PCs.

I apologize for the length of this post and for my focus on my own opinions and desires rather than facts. But, frankly, I don't see supporting more powerful video cards or the interests of hardware hackers as a negatives. One thing that might put me off continued support of MorphOS is a lack of upgrade ability. Already AROS and AmigaOS4 support higher end video cards than we have and soon AmigaOS may be running on more powerful hardware.

While I'd prefer to continue to use MorphOS (as it is clearly superior to those other OS'), I don't see the point in choosing a hobbyist OS that the developers think should be marketed only toward people that want out of the box functionality. That market is already served by the Mac Mini, how about the rest of us that like to customize our computers?

> later Powermacs usually have either an ATI Radeon 9000 Pro or an
> Nvidia Geforce 2 MX200 based video card.

Within the FW800 and MDD generations the models with nVidia card usually have GeForce4 MX, some have GeForce4 Ti. Btw, FW800 was even available with Radeon 9700 Pro optionally.

> AmigaOS4 support higher end video cards than we have

Really? 2D and 3D?

> I don't see the point in choosing a hobbyist OS that the developers think should
> be marketed only toward people that want out of the box functionality.

Then you can stay with MorphOS I think ;-)

> That market is already served by the Mac Mini, how about the rest of us that
> like to customize our computers?

You can buy Pegasos or soon use PowerMac G4 with MorphOS :-)

Thanks Andreas, I know they'll get around to the more hackable Powermac eventually. I think I've seen one of the Ti cards you mentioned (Ti4600 maybe?) and the Radeon 9700 and 9800 were offered as options or upgrades. I wasn't aware of thes Geforce4 MX cards.

Over the years I've bought several Nvidia cards, but I keep coming back to ATI. I've got a 7600GT sitting around I was thinking of using for AROS, but my Windows computers have 3000 and 4000 series ATI cards.
On a straight dollar vs performance basis ATI been really performing well these last several years and they help keep Nvidia's prices down.

I promised I wouldn't make requests again, but I'd love a MorphOS driver for the 3850 or 4650. I have a 3850 PCIe card in one machine and even though its three generations old it still kicks ass. When the first DX11 benchmark came out I was surprised to find that an unused feature (hardware tessellation) was enabled under DX11 (not bad for a DX10.1 card that was two generations away from DX11 support).

[ Edited by Jim on 2010/7/23 21:58 ]

[ Edited by Jim on 2010/7/23 22:31 ]

> Ti4600 maybe?

I don't know which specific GeForce4 Ti model(s) it were. Maybe it were different ones for FW800, MDD and Quicksilver 2002 generations.

> the Radeon 9700 and 9800 were offered as options or upgrades.

Only 9700, as I wrote.

> I wasn't aware of thes Geforce4 MX cards.

Besides FW800 and MDD, GeForce4 MX was used in Quicksilver 2002 generation, while GeForce2 MX was used in Quicksilver 2001 and Digital Audio generations.