Might be of interest - Raptor are going to launch a Talos II workstation, this time it's POWER9-based, no crowd funding, seemingly in cooperation with IBM and proposedly less expensive (klick, klick)

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Dual Power9, interesting.
But affordable?
I have my doubts, as 'competitively priced' would still be damned high.

> Talos II workstation, this time it's POWER9-based

Details:

Board only
Board + single CPU
Board + dual CPU
Desktop
Workstation
Server
POWER9 CPU (4 cores)

I quite like that it's only a quad-core CPU (so far thought POWER9 will be 12-core minimum) and that there'll be the option to have only a single CPU.


Edit: added Desktop system

[ Edited by Andreas_Wolf 17.09.2017 - 23:45 ]

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I missed that.
Puts me off completely.
Why would I spend that kind of money to have half the cores I have on my cheap X64 system?

OR, is this really the case?

Power9 supports two threading options.
SMT4 which features four threads per core, and SMT8 which features eight threads per core.

SO, is the processor quoted really a four core?
In which case it would likely support either 16 or 32 threads simultaneously.
Hey! Sounds good so far.

OR, is this 'four core' processor actually a single core supporting SMT4?
Not so good.

I'll leave this to better researchers to figure out.

But either way, since the pricing of these systems is likely to be obscene, I'd still favor porting to X64, where a 16 thread Ryzen based cpu would no doubt be much cheaper.

> Puts me off completely. Why would I spend that kind of money to have
> half the cores I have on my cheap X64 system?

Two times four SMT4 cores means as much as 32 hardware threads.

> OR, is this really the case? Power9 supports two threading options. SMT4
> which features four threads per core, and SMT8 which features eight threads
> per core. SO, is the processor quoted really a four core?

I'm (positively) surprised myself that a 4-core POWER9 seems to exist, but I find it unlikely that the Raptor people are confusing cores and threads (per core).

> In which case it would likely support either 16 or 32 threads simultaneously.
> Hey! Sounds good so far.

Weren't you put off by this just moments ago? ;-)

> OR, is this 'four core' processor actually a single core supporting SMT4?
> Not so good.

Considering I'm surprised by the quad-core variant, I find it extremely unlikely that IBM produces something like a single-core POWER9.

>Considering I'm surprised by the quad-core variant, I find it extremely unlikely that IBM produces something like a single-core POWER9.

That was my assumption as well, that we were dealing with a 16 thread cpu (at least, unless they are SMT8 derived), so yes, two processors would equal 32 threads - and WHY would you need that much power outside of server applications? I could see sticking with the single cpu version.

So no, I'm not TOO put off, BUT...

Let's see what Raptor prices these at.

Because they really scaled the pricing up in their last project.

BTW - Four core Power9 cpus didn't really surprise me, as there were four core Power8 cpus.
Although IBM doesn't seem interested in promoting the lower end of the Power lineup.

Pity, because these cpus could make the basis for a nice open platform.

> WHY would you need that much power outside of server applications?

To make up for the fact that this is only half the cores you have on your cheap X64 system ;-)

> I could see sticking with the single cpu version.

Yes, that's the bottom line of my comment #20 :-)

'Cheap'? I was always taught to say 'inexpensive' (when selling a cheap item).

> 'Cheap'? I was always taught to say 'inexpensive' (when selling a cheap item). ;-)

You probably just unlearned your manners when writing comment #21 :-)

Nope, I was just resistant to some parts of the training.

For instance, even though I used to make a straight commission, I had a hard time selling something if it wasn't something I'd be willing to spend my own money on.

So 'inexpensive' cheap junk didn't go to far in my sales (because, hey, do YOU want to be blamed by your customers for it after the sale?).

Anyway, you've had a few years to get to know me.
Do you really think I ever don't speak my mind?

Well, here we are! $ 2300 for mainboard + POWER9 CPU + cooler certainly is not bad!

https://raptorcs.com/TALOSII/

[ Editiert durch ernsteiswuerfel 08.08.2017 - 12:39 ]

Update:

> Details: [...]

Pre-order has started and prices are public:

https://www.raptorcs.com/content/base/products.html


Edit: ernsteiswuerfel beat me to it

[ Edited by Andreas_Wolf 08.08.2017 - 13:02 ]

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Prices seem more realistic this time around.

> Prices seem more realistic this time around.

I find 2300 USD for the mainboard plus CPU (and heatsink and I/O plate) quite a bargain. After adding off-the-shelf RAM, graphics card, sound card, storage controller card, storage drive and case with PSU it should still be possible to arrive at below 3000 USD for a complete POWER9 system.

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much more "Bang for the Buck", than the X1000, or X5000 systems. Now that work has begun on the MorphOS porting to x64, I wonder if any of the MorphOS Dev. Team members would even consider supporting the TALOS Workstation, if they were given one of them for free by community members?

I have not paid any attention to just how powerful the Power9 PPC CPU used in this workstation really is, when compared to the low cost x64 alternatives, but I can imagine that if it is even close to being comparable, then Jim must be salivating something terrible, wanting to have some great OS to run on it. Even if it wasn't MorphOS, I suppose he would be happy to run Linux instead, now that he has been using it more often.

I'm also guessing that running MorphOS that can only utilize one CPU core, on such a powerful system, would be a terrible waste, and we all know that we will most likely never see any form of SMP, or even ASMP for the PPC version of MorphOS.

Still, very interesting to see anyone outside the Amiga and MorphOS community still show an interest in a desktop PPC system. Edit: If this workstation can be considered a "desktop" computer?

[ Edited by amigadave 08.08.2017 - 20:26 ]

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Yes, unlike overpriced Aeonkit HW, this is aftually kind of interesting and worth its price. But for MorphOS...?

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Why should paying customers provide them with free hardware? The team have money. They can buy any HW they are interested in. And they do, they bought the X5000's, the Sam, and all other machines they have supported.

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It's very powerful, but mostly in ways that aren't really relevant in a traditional Amigoid context I think. Considerable focus is put on massive bandwidth and parallellism. I can't really see where this makes sense or is harvestable for MorphOS.

I don't know. They have said that the Sam port meant nothing for platform growth of MorphOS, but meant a lot for cleaning and evolving the MorphOS source code. They have also said similar things about the X5000, i.e. not really about market/platform growth, they don't expect that to happen, that's not why they did it. Maybe a port to this system would mean possible cleanup and evolution of the general source code in some ways, that would be generally beneficial for MorphOS? Or just a cool journey of exploration for the developers?

But for users, a tight, highly integrated ARM CPU in a more traditional (low cost, cool and silent) computer context would be much more interesting IMHO.

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Theoretically, if "MorphOS NG" is made hardware agnostic, including the SDK with a build system similar to Linux distributions, then there is no reason to why not more than one platform/architecture could be supported, including PPC and POWER.

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IMHO it's something else. Even if it could be used as one, its features and design clearly has other areas of use in mind.

> I'm also guessing that running MorphOS that can only utilize one
> CPU core, on such a powerful system, would be a terrible waste

...no more than running it on the X5000/40 would be :-)

> The team [...] can buy any HW they are interested in. And they do, they bought
> the X5000's, the Sam, and all other machines they have supported.

Did they?

http://morph.zone/modules/news/article_storyid_1978.html
http://morph.zone/modules/news/article_storyid_2047.html

And Jim makes no secret of his numerous graphics card donations to Bigfoot.

> It's very powerful, but mostly in ways that aren't really relevant in a traditional
> Amigoid context I think. Considerable focus is put on massive bandwidth and
> parallellism. I can't really see where this makes sense or is harvestable for MorphOS.

POWER9 has also great single-thread performance, compared to high-end x86-64 CPUs. See these single-thread benchmark results for (the slower) POWER8:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/9193/the-xeon-e78800-v3-review/11
http://www.anandtech.com/show/10435/assessing-ibms-power8-part-1/9

> They have said that the Sam port [...] meant a lot for cleaning and evolving the MorphOS
> source code. They have also said similar things about the X5000, i.e. not really about
> market/platform growth, they don't expect that to happen, that's not why they did it.

Actually, what was said is this (emphasis mine):

"it had some sideeffects everyone using MorphOS right now benefits from. Huge parts of the boot process and the kernel needed to be rewritten/cleaned. Tons of bugs sitting there were found and fixed. Stuff optimised. Less memory used. So the other systems are now even more stable, have a little more free memory for applications and boot faster. [...] It also (main reason for supporting the 460) allowed to support X5000 boards (getting it to boot) in hours instead weeks."

According to this, "cleaning and evolving the MorphOS source code" allegedly was just a welcome side effect. The "main reason for supporting the 460" allegedly was faster support of the X5000, a platform they now say there is no real market for (which is the same thing they said about the Sam460 before). Supporting a platform with no market to faster support another platform with no market? Weird, huh?

> PPC and POWER.

..."PPC (including POWER)" (or better: "Power Architecture (including POWER)") :-)

>> If this workstation can be considered a "desktop" computer?

> IMHO it's something else. Even if it could be used as one, its
> features and design clearly has other areas of use in mind.

https://static.rptorcs.com/images/talos-page/banner-2-large.png ;-)

> is the processor quoted really a four core?

Yes, it is a four-core with SMT4 (= 16 threads) on a Sforza module:

"Currently on its way to my doorstep is a two-CPU, octocore (each core is SMT-4, so that's 32 threads) Sforza POWER9 Talos II "
http://tenfourfox.blogspot.com/2017/08/and-now-for-several-things-that-are.html

Another interesting comment from the same source:

"if you were actually in the market for an AmigaOne X5000, this blows it out of the water. You could just run UAE on this and have cycles to spare!"

I guess this means that OS4 runs allegedly faster in (FS-)UAE on Talos II (is there even PPC emulation in UAE for anything other than x86(-64)?) than natively on the X5000.


Edit: Now also on the Raptor website:
https://www.raptorcs.com/content/CP9M01/intro.html

[ Edited by Andreas_Wolf 10.08.2017 - 07:05 ]

Well, Mark might accept one, but that wouldn't guarantee a port.

Frankly, it would make more sense to buy him a Ryzen 1800X cpu, an AM4 motherboard and some DDR4.
That way his compile times on the software he is working on would be faster.

And what I'm sending is rather modest, as my expenses paying for classes out of pocket rather taxes my income.

Anytime any of you feels like chipping in...(David has offered, but David's finances are probably tighter than mine).

BTW - I'd rather buy one of these than an X5000 myself.
It's only a few hundred more, and so much more capable.

[ Edited by Jim 09.08.2017 - 10:28 ]

Quote:
I got a FX-8370 + MoBo + 16 GiB DDR3 to offer when I switch to a Ryzen-based gaming PC the next two weeks. Not quite the same league as a Ryzen, but for building jobs on Linux more than adequate. If some Dev is in need.

Quote:

Mark's current system is FM2 based. Not quite as powerful as the AM3+ based system you have, but I think he wants to move straight to an 1800x.
He wants a significant reduction in compile times.

But thanks for offering.

[ Edited by Jim 10.08.2017 - 02:43 ]

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No problem. I would only charge the postage if some other Dev has use for it.

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If any of the developers want to take advantage of this offer, I'll pay the postage.
I can highly recommend the FX8370, as I've used the very similar FX8350.

> I'd rather buy one of these than an X5000 myself.
> It's only a few hundred more, and so much more capable.

Some more details:

"- E-ATX (12“ x 13“) mainboard
- With the 3U HSF assemblies, noise is very low.
- Power consumption of the POWER9 is far less than POWER8
- If you buy the Dual CPU bundle, the PSU needs a dual EPS 12V connector
- no mini PCIe slot
- No M2 slot
- 1x OCuLink port (what is this?)
- 6x 4-pin fan connectors on the mainboard
- To provide maximal PCIe bandwidth for all peripherals, each slot is serviced by a dedicated CPU. As such, two CPUs are required to activate all PCIe slots"
https://lists.debian.org/debian-powerpc/2017/08/msg00005.html

The OCuLink sounds interesting. But the last point is not quite clear to me. The Talos II board has 3 PCIe x16 and 2 PCIe x8 slots. Which of these slots can be used with the single-CPU configuration?