> Its nice to see these last AGP variants being supported

Yes, I guess that R700 (HD4xxx) AGP card support will follow in MorphOS 3.12.

> My guess would be that Mark has figured out how to improve
> the transfer rate of the bridge chip (that was the Achilles
> heel of the X1950Pro AGP driver up until now, and even that
> card might be performing better now).

Indeed, I've been wondering what "Fixed AGP support on R500 [...] cards" in the MorphOS 3.11 release notes means specifically. That might be it.

>..."Fixed AGP support on R500 [...] cards"

I missed that note.
Looks like we won't have to apologize for the R500's performance anymore (not that it was ever the gpu's problem, just the code needed to navigate the bridge chip).

Cool. I'll have to secure something to experiment with, since until now, the best card I've gotten running in a G4 was R400 based.

The big question now is R500 or R600?

Quote:

Would Radeon 4xxx work also on PCI-E dual or quad core G5, and what would be recommended MOS gfx card there, that would eventually get to be Warp3D/Goa supported? Kind of sure, next gen bet?

I have a 7xxx 1Ghz edition in my x1000, but I dont see that coming anytime soon for more then 2D.

Reminds of the days when 6xxx RadeonHD worked only in 2D in workbench, not so long ago.
Hope MOS will smash the gfx parth faster, better and free to OS end users.

Quote:

I wouldn't bet on PCIe G5's if I were you.

> Would Radeon 4xxx work also on PCI-E dual or quad core G5

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=11&topic_id=9888&start=35
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5P2HtBfVdwY

> what would be recommended MOS gfx card there, that would
> eventually get to be Warp3D/Goa supported?

Apart from Wazp3D with TinyGL renderer, official Warp3D/Goa support ends with ancient Radeon R2xx GPU series.

> I have a 7xxx [...] in my x1000, but I dont see that coming anytime soon
> for more then 2D.

OS4 has 3D support for Radeon HD7730 and higher.

> Reminds of the days when 6xxx RadeonHD worked only in 2D in workbench,
> not so long ago.

OS4 still has no 3D support for Radeon HD cards below HD7730.

My PCIe G5 had Radeon 3650 (silent) but i returned to X1950XT as it is faster and has working 3D.

Quote:

First of all, I wanted to extend topic to PCI-E Cards since with SAM460 and x5000 MOS systems are now PCI-E also.

SAM460 and x1000 were all shipped with cards that never got 3D support (4xxx-6xxx) while yes, x5000 is shipped with Warp3D Nova card with no older Warp3D support (Do have Enhancer 1.3 and Radeon 7xxx and yes, you still have to buy another Warp3D driver).

Not to mention, once you go 7xxx SI cards, you lose 3D under Linux.

Now, back on MOS, any full PCI-E card support (with full 3D) after 9600 and X14xx (or whatever were the last PCI models) would be great 3.11+ archievement. I suppose these drivers could be legacy backported to x64 if needed, so are a must on future x64 front too (or done in x64 and backported to PPC32/64, irrelevant).

Topic is Peg2 but also about MOS gfx cards.


[ Edited by vox 16.08.2018 - 14:20 ]

The Powerpc 3D performance bands are increasing quite significantly .
Dont know if this will have any influence on the MorphOS powerpc graphics card support Roadmap.

Using AmigaOS 4.1FE, Warp3D Nova and the Level 1 on the game Spencer for basic fps info .

X5000/020

Comparison

ASUS R7-240 (Oland) = 22-23fps
ASUS R7-250 (Cape Verde) = 52-55fps
Club3D R7-370 (Pitcairn/Curaçao Pro) = 55-62fps
PowerColor R7-250X (Cape Verde) = 64-69fps
ASUS R9-270X (/Pitcairn/Curaçao XT)= 72-80fps
Sapphire Rx 550 4Gb (Polaris 12) = 95-109fps
Asus Rx 560 4GB (Polaris 11) = 128-161fps

[ Edited by Spectre660 16.08.2018 - 10:21 ]

Quote:
No.

Quote:
You can find a similar range of frame rate numbers for 3D games that run on MorphOS with older graphics cards...

Also, with all due respect, Spencer, which certainly looks nice enough based on screenshots, is not exactly pushing the boundaries of real-time 3D graphics on the PowerPC architecture. There are plenty of games with notably more sophisticated 3D engines and graphics effects running on the PowerPC-based XBOX 360, which happens to feature an ATI / AMD GPU that is only 2 or 3 years newer than the R300-based chips as found in the vast majority of MorphOS systems out there.

I keep forgetting about the current installed base .
Any cards supporting OpenGL 3.3 or higher would advance 3D.
If you factor in the current installed base it might not be worth a developing any though further.

Quote:

I rather think that what's implied here is that the drivers (for the cards running the Spencer game) are....not doing very well.

Polite but nice speculation .

> x5000 is shipped with Warp3D Nova card with no older Warp3D support

All cards supported by Warp3D Nova are also supported by "older Warp3D" via Warp3D-SI.

> any full PCI-E card support (with full 3D) after 9600 and X14xx

R3xx: 9800 XT
R4xx: X800/X850 XT
R5xx: X1950 Pro/XT (also, there is no X14xx)

> or whatever were the last PCI models

Why not AGP?

> would be great 3.11+ archievement.

You mean 3.12+. 3.11 has already been released.

> I suppose these drivers could be legacy backported to x64 if needed

I don't think any port to x64 would classify as a backport ;-)

> Topic is Peg2 but also about MOS gfx cards.

Chain-Q's comment you replied to and quoted twice was only about graphics cards on Pegasos II running MorphOS.

The Polaris cards may not support Warp3D-SI.
Possible solution.


.

[ Edited by Spectre660 16.08.2018 - 19:36 ]

Quote:
With regard to MorphOS 3.x, users with (usually non-upgradable) R2/300 GPUs outnumber users with PCI-E systems by a giant margin, which is unlikely to change unless perhaps the X5000 receives a massive price cut.

That said, it is not like the hardware capabilities of these GPUs have been fully utilized yet. There is still room for improvements.

Quote:
That seems like a rather arbitrary statement.

I would like to refer you to my game console example again. The PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 were released 12 and 13 years ago. Both have had their CPU performance compared to PowerMac G5 systems. Both also feature GPUs that are more than a decade old as well. Yet, when you look at titles such as Alan Wake, Crysis 3, Forza 4 or GTA 5, they show 3D graphics effects that outclass anything running on any PowerPC desktop operating system today by far. (Or small-niche i386 operating systems for that matter.)

This just shows it does not matter when your GPU was released but how you use it.

Andre has a really good point here.
The progressive refining and polishing of the R200 driver yielded a big jump in performance, and our drivers don't fully utilize that hardware.
When you consider the features in the later Terascale gpus we're adopting, and the fact that our drivers don't utilize these gpus significantly differently than the R200s, all we are really gaining is an increase in the speed of basic operations.

So OpenGL 3.3? If the OS doesn't support that functionality, does it matter?



[ Edited by Jim 17.08.2018 - 15:17 ]

Andreas_Wolf wrote:

> x5000 is shipped with Warp3D Nova card with no older Warp3D support

All cards supported by Warp3D Nova are also supported by "older Warp3D" via Warp3D-SI.

Again, I throught so until tried. Warp3D support needs a separate, payable driver from AmiStore that is NOT included with Enhancer

> any full PCI-E card support (with full 3D) after 9600 and X14xx

R3xx: 9800 XT
R4xx: X800/X850 XT
R5xx: X1950 Pro/XT (also, there is no X14xx)

Thanks, that was most informative. I believe X1950 has a great chances being both OS4 and MOS compatibile.

> or whatever were the last PCI models

Why not AGP?

Because beside Peg2 only old AmigaOnes use AGP.

> would be great 3.11+ archievement.

You mean 3.12+. 3.11 has already been released.

Probably some Cloanto minor fix I missed.

> I suppose these drivers could be legacy backported to x64 if needed

I don't think any port to x64 would classify as a backport

I ment drivers done first for x64 rel. and then backported to maintaned PPC64 release, if that is priority order.

[ Edited by vox 17.08.2018 - 20:56 ]

Quote:

The X1950 like the X1650 I am currently using on my X5000 is compatible with both but sadly there is no Warp3D on these cards under AmigaOS 4. You can use Wazp3D but I’ll be honest this performs better in a blue shade than it does in a red one. Case in point Wipeout 2097.

For the time being at least if you wish to run both MorphOS and AmigaOS on the X5000 you have to sacrifice Warp3D/Warp3D Nova on AmigaOS 4. I guess the deciding factor is down to ones own personal needs and desires.

Each OS has its pluses and minuses too, striking a balance is perhaps the best option 😉

Quote:
As you should be aware, the only PowerMac G5 models that are officially supported by MorphOS use AGP graphics cards... (And these systems are quite a bit faster than a Pegasos2 both in terms of CPU and GPU performance too.)

> our drivers don't utilize [Terascale] gpus significantly differently than the R200s

At least for now there's still a significant difference: one is 3D-supported, the other isn't :-)

> If the OS doesn't support [OpenGL 3.3] functionality, does it matter?

At least porting more recent games (OpenGL 3.3 is from 2010) may require newer OpenGL than MorphOS currently provides.

Quote:

Yes, I am aware, but there are also dual and quad core G5s with PCI-E
and it would be best to also support them. PCI-E card support is a must
now with x5000 and SAM460 and x64 transition.

I am aware and well remember how AGP was step up to PCI.

> Thanks, that was most informative.

Note that what I listed are AGP cards, not PCI cards.

> I believe X1950 has a great chances being both OS4 and MOS compatibile.

Yes, just lack of 3D support on OS4 side.

>> Why not AGP?

> Because beside Peg2 only old AmigaOnes use AGP.

...and MorphOS-supported PowerMac G4 and PowerMac G5.

>> You mean 3.12+. 3.11 has already been released.

> Probably some Cloanto minor fix I missed.

No, you were talking about MorphOS at that point.

>>> I suppose these drivers could be legacy backported to x64 if needed

>> I don't think any port to x64 would classify as a backport ;-)

> I ment drivers done first for x64 rel. and then backported to maintaned PPC64 release

That's clearly not what you meant by the quoted part. You were talking about that direction separately.

If we are talking AGP cards the higher end cards Radeon supported currently up to the ATI FireGL X3 are OpenGL 2.0 . Everything in the higher series are OpenGl 3.3 .
An observation under Linux Powerpc was that the game Torcs would not render properly with a OpenGl 2.1 video card but would with an OpenGl 3.3 card


[ Edited by Spectre660 18.08.2018 - 08:03 ]

>> our drivers don't utilize [Terascale] gpus significantly differently than the R200s

>At least for now there's still a significant difference: one is 3D-supported, the other isn't

Good point. Earlier cards have 3D support. And the R200s even have Warp3D support.

>> If the OS doesn't support [OpenGL 3.3] functionality, does it matter?

>At least porting more recent games (OpenGL 3.3 is from 2010) may require newer OpenGL than MorphOS currently provides.

An update to TinyGL would be nice.
OpenGL 3.3 would be a good target, better than OpenGL ES.

Once you have the main infrastructure in place additional wrappers make things interesting .
Hopefully porting will become quick and relatively painless .

wrapper EGL OpenGLES 2.0

GL4ES: another OpenGL over OpenGLES2 emulation

These demos already work with Polaris cards .

[ Edited by Spectre660 20.08.2018 - 12:08 ]