>> firmware (unability to see any GPUs behind bridge chips)

> Actually, there are PCI versions of HD4350-based graphics cards.

...which should be using a bridge chip, as the R700 GPU family is PCIe only, so should be subject to the Pegasos II firmware‘s mentioned limitation, shouldn‘t it? Btw, PCI Radeons went up to the HD5450 even.

> It probably wouldn't be too hard to modify on Peg for a lower AGP slot voltage, but
> since the firmware won't recognize later cards, there wouldn't be any point in it.

Even with the firmware limitation still in place, a 1.5 V AGP slot would allow using Radeon X800/X850 graphics cards based on R420/R481 GPUs, which are AGP so don‘t need a bridge chip.

http://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=8079&forum=11&start=9
http://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=9647&forum=3&start=7

Quote:
Unlike you, I would not broadly classify graphics cards as "unusable with a Pegasos" for not showing me "SmartFirmware(tm)" for the millionth time when I boot up.

Personally, I have not updated my boot script in 15 years. When there is a CD in the drive, it will be booted. If not, the computer starts from harddisk, which is always connected to the same port.

I've got a HD4350 PCI, which I tested in my Pegasos II. OF obviously doesn't work, but MorphOS 3.10 should. Sadly, the performance is compromised by the PCI bridge of this card, and the 33Mhz PCI slot, so the available bandwidth to the HD Radeon is a magnitude slower than to an AGP card, so overall the experience is not really improved compared to an R200 or R300 Radeon.

Would be fun if someone could try an AGP to 3.3V PCI passive converter (similarly what the Efika has, but the "other way around"), and try the PCI Radeon HD in the AGP slot, but I couldn't find such a piece of hardware.

> I would not broadly classify graphics cards as "unusable with a Pegasos"
> for not showing me "SmartFirmware(tm)"

Until now I thought that an OS running on the Pegasos II would inherit this firmware limitation. Good to learn that this is not the case and that from a user perspective it works similar to using an AtomBIOS-based graphics card in a PowerMac G5.

> I've got a HD4350 PCI, which I tested in my Pegasos II.
> OF obviously doesn't work, but MorphOS 3.10 should.

Should or does/did? Initial HD4350 support was added with MorphOS 3.8.

> Would be fun if someone could try an AGP to 3.3V PCI passive converter [...],
> and try the PCI Radeon HD in the AGP slot

Yes, as the weakest link determines the total speed, PCIe <-> 66 MHz PCI <-> AGP should be twice as fast as PCIe <-> 66 MHz PCI <-> 33 MHz PCI.

Quote:
Does this answer your question? : Pega2-2GB-RadeonHD.png

Made with an earlier beta, but the final works as well. 3.10 improved the support, so the card is now initialized properly without the OF, and works in a Pegasos II, or Efika. It didn't work with 3.8 or 3.9 at least. I still cannot wholeheartedly recommend it over an R9800 or 9200 though, for the aforementioned reasons.

> Pega2-2GB-RadeonHD.png
> [...] the card [...] works in a Pegasos II, or Efika.

Wow, that's seriously cool :-) Thank you for posting this.

Quote:

Yes, that IS very nice.
Until now, your best choice was a universally keyed Radeon 9800Pro.

Of course the Radeon still has the advantage of 3D acceleration.

But these HD PCI cards should eventually receive 3D support.

The PCI bus is comparatively slow, but the superior power of these gpus should help compensate for that.
And these PCI cards could be used on other AGP systems, since our AGP support tops out at the X1950Pro (and the Apple X800XT actually performs better since it isn't limited by 1X bus transfer rates).

I know it was Marks decision, but I still wish we'd received support for the AGP variants of the HD 3850 and the 4650/70. They would have been transfer rate limited as well, but an HD 3850 or 4670 should be a match for the 5450.

In any case, our future really depends on adopting PCIe systems.

There are no high end HD based PCI cards, and running a PCIe card in a PCI slot (as some SAM440 OS4 users do), just seems too limiting.

Still, I'm distracting from the main point, Peg users can now upgrade to cards beyond the Radeon 9800, and that's cool.

> The PCI bus is comparatively slow, but the superior power of these
> gpus should help compensate for that.

I still think this depends on the use case.

http://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=9&topic_id=12232&start=52

> running a PCIe card in a PCI slot [...] just seems too limiting.

Is that because "the superior power of these gpus" cannot "help compensate for" the "comparatively slow" "PCI bus"? ;-)

Quote:

Here's one, but it's a home-made project, and I don't think it was ever mass-produced:
http://extreme.pcgameshardware.de/tagebuecher/233982-projekt-agp-1-0-pci-adapter.html

[ Edited by BSzili 04.04.2018 - 11:47 ]

Quote:

Now where are them, benchmarks, mate? ;)

>> AGP to 3.3V PCI passive converter (similarly what the Efika has,
>> but the "other way around"), and try the PCI Radeon HD in the
>> AGP slot, but I couldn't find such a piece of hardware.

> Here's one [...]

Looks like the wrong direction (AGP card in PCI slot) to me.

Quote:


I am glad HD 4xxx series support is on. Hope to see onward progress to HD 6xxx and 7xxx, which is what most of SAM460ex/x5000 systems are equipped now, and could be a great leap forward from older cards. Too bad OS4 uses them just a bit for 2D display. Having Warp3D on them would be a great achievement.

>> Pega2-2GB-RadeonHD.png

> Hope to see onward progress to HD 6xxx and 7xxx

Unlikely, as there are no PCI cards beyond HD 5450.

> which is what most of SAM460ex/x5000 systems are equipped now

1. PCIe cards are completely irrelevant for the Pegasos.
2. HD 6350 to 7670 (except 69xx) PCIe cards are already supported by MorphOS.
3. Almost no Sam460/X5000 systems used for OS4 are equipped with a HD 6350 to 7670 card due to OS4's lack of 3D support for cards before HD 7730 (i.e. pre-GCN).

> and could be a great leap forward from older cards.

MorphOS support for HD 7730 and beyond would be nice, indeed.

> OS4 uses them just a bit for 2D display. Having Warp3D on them
> would be a great achievement.

Huh? OS4 uses cards that "most of SAM460ex/x5000 systems are equipped" with "just a bit for 2D display"? That's certainly not true. The truth is that X5000 systems have been delivered exclusively with cards that are 3D-supported (Warp3D and Warp3D Nova) by OS4.

I'm surprised that no owners of Peg2 systems complained about the voltage issues that make the R600 and R700 AGP variants incompatible with that system.

A voltage mod for these boards would be useful.

I'm not sure the firmware would recognize an R400, but using AGP variants of the R600 and R700 wouldn't require firmware support.

BTW - Sorry, but no benchmarks on the new AGP cards from me as everything except my iBook is in some state of disassembly.

I'd really love to hear how the HD3650-HD4670 AGP cards work (and yes, I know there are 2600 AGP variants, but really, why would you bother with one).

I may just have to replace the old 7,2 model I've got as I can't track down the problem.

> no owners of Peg2 systems complained about the voltage issues that
> make the R600 and R700 AGP variants incompatible with that system.

...same as with AGP cards based on R400 and R500, right?

> I'm not sure the firmware would recognize an R400

R4xx is the last series that contains real AGP GPUs, namely R420 and R481.

> using AGP variants of the R600 and R700 wouldn't require firmware support.
> [...] I'd really love to hear how the HD3650-HD4670 AGP cards work

As far as I understand the MorphOS 3.11 release notes, Radeon HD AGP support has been extended to R600 series (HD2350 to HD3870) but does not include R700 (HD4xxx).

>> no owners of Peg2 systems complained about the voltage issues that
>> make the R600 and R700 AGP variants incompatible with that system.

>...same as with AGP cards based on R400 and R500, right?

Yep, in fact,if you want to use an R300 you usually need a universally keyed video card. I have found some 9800XT core equipped cards based on 9800Pro designs (a clocked at that speed) that are universally keyed (but running at a higher/XT speed would probably require a better cooler on most of them, they don't have temp or fan speed sensors, would require a bios mod to run the gpu faster, and may be equipped with slow memory requiring that you know what speed you need to clock to gpu and memory at).

>> I'm not sure the firmware would recognize an R400

>R4xx is the last series that contains real AGP GPUs, namely R420 and R481.

That is cool. Of course, we are back to the voltage issue at that point, but if I had one, I'd figure out how to do it. Then again, the R300 driver on a Radeon 9800Pro might perform almost as well as an X800XT on that platform.
And if we are modding for voltage, then why not go full bore and use an AGP HD3850?

>> using AGP variants of the R600 and R700 wouldn't require firmware support.
>> [...] I'd really love to hear how the HD3650-HD4670 AGP cards work

>As far as I understand the MorphOS 3.11 release notes, Radeon HD AGP support has been extended to R600 series (HD2350 to HD3870) but does not include R700 (HD4xxx).

Oh, I thought Mark had enabled both the R600 and R700 cards. Its not that big an issue though, as the HD 3850 performs as well as the HD 46XX (with a more even frame rate).
So we just have to pay a little more for the HD3850 cards (they seem to be more popular than the HD 46XX, and usually command a higher price).

I'll have to take a look and see if AGP HD 3650 support has been enabled.
These can sometimes be had at good prices, and I'd like to try one in a G4 (with pins 3 and 11 taped masked for AGP 4X compatibility).

If we've received support for all R600s, there are 2XXX and 3XXX series cards (other than the HD 3850)that would be interesting to explore.

Its nice to see these last AGP variants being supported, as the majority of our supported hardware is AGP, not PCI-e. And with Atom bios support (that Mark introduced with the R500 driver) we no longer have to be limited to Apple cards for G4 and G5 systems).

These were all options Mark has been talking about for awhile.

You all can argue about what should take priority, but you can't discount the man's commitment.
Support for everything (except the 69XX cards) before the GCN cards, drivers that don't rely on an Apple rom to run more modern gpus, and now AGP support.

My guess would be that Mark has figured out how to improve the transfer rate of the bridge chip (that was the Achilles heel of the X1950Pro AGP driver up until now, and even that card might be performing better now).

If it wasn't for a total renovation of my flat I would already be testing the compatibility of available AGP card variants. But I guess I can't hold myself back and I'll be digging through the boxes today afternoon. Maybe not the HD series, but I should definitely have some AGP X1900's.

> Its nice to see these last AGP variants being supported

Yes, I guess that R700 (HD4xxx) AGP card support will follow in MorphOS 3.12.

> My guess would be that Mark has figured out how to improve
> the transfer rate of the bridge chip (that was the Achilles
> heel of the X1950Pro AGP driver up until now, and even that
> card might be performing better now).

Indeed, I've been wondering what "Fixed AGP support on R500 [...] cards" in the MorphOS 3.11 release notes means specifically. That might be it.

>..."Fixed AGP support on R500 [...] cards"

I missed that note.
Looks like we won't have to apologize for the R500's performance anymore (not that it was ever the gpu's problem, just the code needed to navigate the bridge chip).

Cool. I'll have to secure something to experiment with, since until now, the best card I've gotten running in a G4 was R400 based.

The big question now is R500 or R600?

Quote:

Would Radeon 4xxx work also on PCI-E dual or quad core G5, and what would be recommended MOS gfx card there, that would eventually get to be Warp3D/Goa supported? Kind of sure, next gen bet?

I have a 7xxx 1Ghz edition in my x1000, but I dont see that coming anytime soon for more then 2D.

Reminds of the days when 6xxx RadeonHD worked only in 2D in workbench, not so long ago.
Hope MOS will smash the gfx parth faster, better and free to OS end users.

Quote:

I wouldn't bet on PCIe G5's if I were you.

> Would Radeon 4xxx work also on PCI-E dual or quad core G5

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=11&topic_id=9888&start=35
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5P2HtBfVdwY

> what would be recommended MOS gfx card there, that would
> eventually get to be Warp3D/Goa supported?

Apart from Wazp3D with TinyGL renderer, official Warp3D/Goa support ends with ancient Radeon R2xx GPU series.

> I have a 7xxx [...] in my x1000, but I dont see that coming anytime soon
> for more then 2D.

OS4 has 3D support for Radeon HD7730 and higher.

> Reminds of the days when 6xxx RadeonHD worked only in 2D in workbench,
> not so long ago.

OS4 still has no 3D support for Radeon HD cards below HD7730.

My PCIe G5 had Radeon 3650 (silent) but i returned to X1950XT as it is faster and has working 3D.