Mmh, I don't understand... butterflyvale.de is registered to DjBase (a well known and respected member of our community) and hosted at 1&1. Are you saying he wants you to pay for the domain?

Something/-body seems to be confused here.

Thats right, I registered the domain. I heard about the troubles weeks ago and saw that the domain is free so I get it.

I havent sent any invoices. It was just for keeping it away from these criminals.

My plan was to give it back to the original author or for hosting the old page. If he wants the domain back he can contact me.

I'm not a lawyer, and obviously laws differ between countries, but
some general advice for such situations:

- Answer and deny all claims promptly. Do this by regular mail. If
they don't write a mailing address on their claims, they are not
serious. Answer *all* claims. Here in Sweden, there have been cases
with people who were drowned with fraudulous claims, to the point
where just answering it became a burden. But it was still the way to
go.

- Keep records that you sent them such denials. If it's causing you
loss of sleep, I think you should send them a statement denying any
contract with them by registered mail. This way you can prove that
they received it. Meanwhile, make sure to save any copies you have of
whatever you have communicated to them before. Even if it's just an
email which could easily be forged, it still helps you in case you
would get into court (not likely!!) because they would have to claim
you are a forger and that you don't just misremember when and what you
said. Make sure your copies are dated.

- Be careful not to make any admissions. It's easy to mistakenly
borrow some of their language in a reply, talking about some contract
or whatever as if it existed, when in fact it doesn't. No need to get
fancy, just tell them plainly that you don't have any agreement with
them and that you don't think you have any obligation to pay them, and
that if they think otherwise, you want them to explain and prove this.

@DJBase

Good move!

@tomjoad
They cannot charge you for a domain that they have not registered for you, right?!!

I don't know if it would have any impact, but maybe sending a collective letter against them (you know a really serious letter, the one that comes before the legal action [sorry don't remember the english term, in french it's "mise en demeure"]) could be a good idea to show our support to tomjoad.

I'm not too much into legal stuff, so what do you think?

Fred

Quote:

Nonono! Of course he's not. After I did not pay, the domain registrator gave the domain back to the DeNIC. The DeNIC put it in TRANSIT and tried to contact me to ask what's to be done with it, but the old hoster had not registered my full address with the DeNIC and two letters came back as undeliverable, so they deleted the domain registration.

Quote:
Wouldn't expect the opposite
Quote:
Ah, bad luck... but the domain is in good hands now

Hope you will get rid of that geheim.com-guy soon, he should have no proof that can withstand a court.

yeah.. don't talk about cheap providers. I'm trying since more than a year to move my domain taniquetil.de from old to new provider. It's a very similiar story.

The only thing you can do is to make it public.

I can only suggest not host your domains with netbeat.de. Seem to be a very similiar chaotic group, they have a "Hinterhof" contact adresses in germany, but their headquarters are in romania. Very suspect. If i just had known earlier.

regards,
tokai

So Mr HighIntelligence already said that you/others have no contract
with him and never had. So no reason for you to pay. After all
background information you gave. It would be very annoying if he even
had a chance in court. Just tell the judge about www.geheim.com ... .
But this won't happen. People like Fernandez try to threaten people
with all kinds of tricks to get their money . And i think much people
pay because they do not want to have trouble and are afraid of court
costs. I say: With his "mailbox company" (Scheinfirma) he knows that
one can even start a court against him if his company was in eg
germany. Good thing is also you are not alone, and you know
of the other incidents.


Don't give up.

It is very sad that people like us have to bother with this kind
of people.

For the next time maybe get a court insurance (not only for
internet...) so you can go to a lawyer and send nice letters back.
Then you do not have to bother with this yourself.

Cheers

Ok, I assume you replied to the collector's demand as well.

I don't know the situation in Germany, but here in Sweden the
collector would in turn leave their demands to the federal enforcement
officers. These would send you a letter, and if you don't respond to
that letter you would be in trouble. But before the federal
enforcement authorities are involved, there's no real legal threat.

[edit: And if the companies are a sham, they very likely would not
turn to the authorities, as they don't want to arouse their
attention!]


Anyway, I think you have really nothing to fear. This type of scam is
not usually based on any "legal loophole", but rather they are hoping
that *you* will be scared by the legal threats and think it's
safest/most comfortable to just pay and shut up.

Well first of all ... thanks to you all for your kind words. I do appreciate it and I hope I'll get out of this without paying anything.

Quote:

Yes and no. I did write them just today; maybe I should have done earlier but German law states that the company who has sent the bill does have to minimise the costs for the person owing the money. So ... once there are clear signs that I wouldn't pay even after he called in a debt collector, he has disregarded his obligement. Luckily (I didn't know this by then, you learn a lot of stuff ) I clearly stated in my letter I sent by registered mail that I wouldn't pay period. So his only way should have been straight to court - any other means trying to collect the money are at his own expense.

But as I stated, just to make sure I sent the collectors an e-mail, tomorrow morning a fax and a registered letter will go out (wanna be safe).

EDIT: Oops I think I misunderstood you (that you were talking of debt collector costs). Yes I know, once a federal enforcement letter comes in, I'd have to reply within two weeks or automatically accept the debt

Not with me ...

Hi tomjoad,

I wish you all the luck in the world with this.
And I'm glad your going for the "battle" and not for the accepting of this ridiculous nonsense!
I really hate these kind of people!

Again, good luck!

Spidey