no need to sorry :)

Quote:

And here's the rub. You keep bragging about how OS4 *CLASSIC* on WinUAE is so viable, but you aren't eating your own dog food.

Not to me, but I have a response:
Quote:

Again you keep mixing OS4 with OS4 *CLASSIC*, they are 2 different distros. Then you are comparing OS4 *CLASSIC* on WinUAE to MorphOS on real hardware. Here's the real comparison of a system I have been using for about 2 years.

My system:
PowerMac G5 2.5Ghz - $100
MorphOS license - $125
------------------------------
Total cost - $225
Speed: by far the fastest Amiga-compatible NG solution available with only the 2.7Ghz G5 model slightly edging it.
Available RAM: 1.5GB


Your theoretic solution:
Used X86 laptop - $200
OS4.1FE - $30
------------------------------
Total cost - $230
Speed: About A4K with CSPPC 200Mhz, slower than a Sam440EP
Available RAM: 73MB(!!!)

Basically since you don't even use AROS, you are just justifying in your own mind why you don't use any AmigaNG solution. You just want to use Windows.

[ Edited by redrumloa 21.02.2016 - 17:36 ]

1. i am a MorphOS user. i have MorphOS running on a G5@2.3GHz. Soon also on a PB 5,7
2. you compare a towerized system which consumes more energy and therefore costs more to an i5 laptop. lets stay at mobile machines or compare a G5 to an adequate x64 towerized machine in the same price range.
3. Depending on your hardware OS4 runs a lot faster than a CSPPC. Look at the link i've posted earlier.
4. As stated before probably 99% of the people do already own a modern x64 machine. So they don't have to buy extra hardware, which ultimately means you would only have to pay 29,95 Euros for OS4.1. If you wanna use or test MorphOS you HAVE TO buy old/outdated or new and overpriced hardware.

How come the CSPPC emulation in WinUAE is so incomplete it won't run MorphOS 1.4.5 but does manage to run OS4?

Are they writing an OS4 emulation platform or an accurate as possible Amiga+Expansion Hardware emulator?

I always thought is was the latter but now i i'm not so sure. If they were aiming for accurate Phase 5 hardware emulation then it should be able to run MOS1.4.

> [...] OS4 with OS4 *CLASSIC*, they are 2 different distros.

See my question in comment #108.

> How come the CSPPC emulation in WinUAE is so incomplete it won't run MorphOS 1.4.5
> but does manage to run OS4? Are they writing an OS4 emulation platform or an accurate
> as possible Amiga+Expansion Hardware emulator? [...] If they were aiming for accurate
> Phase 5 hardware emulation then it should be able to run MOS1.4.

Statement from Toni Wilen himself:

http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=1025169

I'm not aware of more recent information.

Quote:

And that is exactly the point where I see the big plus for an emulator myself. It's not only the cost (money may matter or not - depneding on your actual bank account), but it's also the thing of having heaps of technology. While it's kind of funky to have a lot of more or less exotc gear (i really like it) it's also not the most convenient and practical solution for all. An emulator lowers the hurdle for many ppl. And an emulator is an addition not a replacement. I don't see me replacing my ppc kit with an emulator, but I would of course welcome to be able to use MorphOS wherever I am without carrying a dedicated machine with me.

Anyway: best way forward is to go x64 anyway. And then with drivers for some real hardware, but also for a virtualized environement.

in my opinion theres one huge problem regarding the OS4 community and that is AmiStore. They really squeeze out the last penny from the user. but thats A-EON business it seems...

Quote:

Thanks Andreas, I've seen that post from Toni before which is what leads me to believe that he isn't interested in writing accurate hardware emulation at all.

Cego, you bore me. Nevertheless, I'll reply to your post. I think you dont understand what I"m saying. Maybe a language barrier and english is your second language. Maybe this post will clarify?

Quote:

<YAWN> I dont care. Again.. <sigh> I'm not a OS4 user. I dont care about using it. If I get OS4, its because its a pirated copy. No joke. I wont even spend the $10 on it or whatever it costs. If you go to a Linux forum and talk about Windows, how many people will care? Just like if you come here and talk about OS4, you ran across me. I dont care.

Quote:
I agree. Running WinUAE, an emulator, on a new PC means running an emulator on new hardware.

Quote:

I agree.

Quote:

I think this is where your lack of english/reading comprehension took a turn for the worse. I said:

Quote:

Just in case you missed the above quote..I'll re-quote it:

Quote:

Ok, what that means is... I cannot run OS4 on a PowerBook or my bad ass G5 Mac tower. So it doesnt compete on any hardware *I OWN*. "I own" is in my above quote and then the original quote above that, just in case you missed it. Probably a vision issue on your end? So if its something that I dont use, why would I care? Competition is good for the MorphOS Dev team..but even then, I'll say they are the BEST DEVELOPERS between these two platforms bar none.


Quote:

Really? I talk about OS4 "constantly"? Maybe when I say it sucks. LMAO. I'm sorry, but you are delusional.

Quote:

"who wants to run Workbench on a real Amiga"? Oh I dunno. I guess nobody uses a real Amiga. Ebay doesnt exist, Amibay no longer has users buying and selling real, actual Amiga hardware. We all want to emulate. Everybody. Nobody is happy and we are all wanting OS4 on a emulator.


Quote:

Well then. I guess I am the only user happy with running MorphOS on my $100 Powerbook G4. I mean its fast, does what I want... NAH.. I have to be lying right? right?? LOL!!!

Quote:

If you mean taking my Powerbook G4 with MorphOS everywhere I go, a "restriction", then I guess I am happy with my restriction

Quote:

I just think you're trying to come out of the closet and say you love OS4. Its ok to come out, I'll accept you. Hell, post it here on MZ.


Cego, I dont care if you or anyone else like OS4 emulated. Thats great. I really have no problem with it. I am NOT an OS4 user, never have been, never will be. The only way I"ll test OS4, I listed above, then I'll delete it. I am 1000% happy with taking my 10 year old Powerbook everywhere I go with MorphOS on it. Maybe you're just an unhappy guy seeing others happy?

Please run this thru translate.google.com in your native tongue, just to make sure you comprehend.

[ Edited by TheMagicM 21.02.2016 - 22:24 ]

@TheMagicM

Nobody wants to use emulator? Funny thing... I do

Amiga hardware was way too expensive and outdated to be a option to me, I only had two old A600 at home, mainly used to transfer the disks to adf and use them in emulation on modern hardware. I want to use best possible option at a good price. That has changed a little with Vampire cards which I have ordered last weekend but still I would prefer UAE for development and it is the only option to have something portable. Many people have modern hardware and use emulation for sure, if they qualify as "real users" must everybody decide for himself. For me everyone is equal, if using emulation or real hardware. Emulation has the advantage that you can do more than with most of the real hardware, at least 68k on modern hardware is fast enough to beat many PPC options, that might be different when emulating PPC like for 4.X but ruling out emulation seems to me a little shortsighted.

Regarding pricing of MorphOS, discussing about that makes equal sense to discuss about ISA change of 4.X... no sense. MorphOS team certainly will not lower prices because of it. But generally MorphOS running on UAE would be nice and bring potentially new users because most people already own modern PCs and many are certainly do not want to buy used Macs just to use MorphOS, the same is true for most people not wanting to buy overpriced underpowered PPC hardware just to use 4.X. So MorphOS running on UAE without the same silly limitations as 4.X and at a lower price would certainly be a big seller.

Best developers on MorphOS? We should stop that kind of discussions because it only lead to emotional discussions. They are great developers for sure and we should leave it at that.

BTW how do you measure "best developers"? Number of commits? (that are unknown) Published software?



[ Editiert durch OlafSch 22.02.2016 - 09:41 ]

@TheMagicM

lol! i understand you pretty well.

it doesnt compete on YOUR hardware? are we now measuring competiveness of two systems based on YOUR hardware? a little egocentric of you... or ignorant whatever.
i dont care what your personal taste is. you are not representing the whole community. i am talking here about competition in general.

but anyway what you say is contradictory. First you say "who wants to use emulators" as an argument against the competitiveness of OS4, now you say you were only talking about yourself. sorry sir, but you're talking BS.

nonetheless the statement that OS4 and MorphOS are in Competiton is still valid no matter what your personal taste is.

For me there is no compétition btw os4 and morphos in terms of hardware for sure. The best way to use morphos or os4 on PC is to build à pegasos2 emulator. Using virtualisation for graphic card and sound support. The problem of winuae is that it's limited to cyberstorm card limitations. Ppc on winuae is only a proof concept. For morphos i think that envolving the os whith more fonctions (midi support,opengl shaders...,CUPS or another printing system) is a need at short time. Some more hardware support can also be interesting. (X5000,IMac G5...). In the same time the code of many parts should be made to be portable for MosNg ...

Quote:

Reading comprehension. Go back and re-read what I posted... Wait.. I'll get it for you.

Quote:

Apparently you and Cego do not understand. There isnt a "?" at the end of that sentence. So its not a question. Let me get the actual paragraph for you (and Cego...he's really really slow).


Quote:

Ok, what the above first couple of sentences are doing is me stating that what this OS4 emulation thing boils down to is "who wants to use an emulator" and "who wants real hardware". Reading comprehension. We are all here to learn, hopefully you and Cego now understand a little better?


Quote:

Yea I know. I gave an example of using Amiga hardware. Cego said that if I'm "happy with 10 year old hardware and its limitations"... so I gave an example that I'm not unique in wanting REAL HARDWARE..not *EMULATED*. Yes my PB and G5 is old, so is an Amiga. Wanting the real deal is preferred to *me*.

Quote:

As far as emulation.. replace "Cego" with your name. Again, I dont care if you like to use an emulator. Have at it. I am happy with my hardware.



Cego:
Quote:

I think you're trying to convince yourself that OS4 emulated and emulating in general is best for everyone. That your ideals are best. Its ok if people have opinions of their own. I'm not the only one wanting to use *REAL HARDWARE*. You dont need to try and convince me that emulation is the best. I'm not interested in what you think or think you know.


Quote:

Quote:

LMAO. You idiot.. you said you understood what I said. Now I know you didnt. Fool, go read the beginning of this reply. Nowhere did I state "who wants to use emulators". Reading comprehension. I'm here to teach. You are my student.

Now do I really need to break down every sentence I write. English isnt THAT hard to understand.

@TheMagicm

thanks for your lectures in "english"...

i wanted to write some more about that but keep it at that. If you are as good in english as you claim you understand what I mean...

I know that some people prefer "real" hardware to any sort of virtual environment and pay almost any prices for accellerators or other extensions (even for outdated ones) so even if emulation would be faster than say G5 they would still prefer the outdated hardware.

I only wrote that MorphOS would certainly get some new buyers/customers when supporting a virtual environment like UAE because many people are not interested to buy used mac hardware (be it for emotional reasons or just because they do not want to add another hardware because of no space) but would install MorphOS on their PCs when it would be easy and not too expensive. Perhaps these people would even buy dedicated hardware later because they like MorphOS. If that people are "users" in the sense of using it as main system for everyday use is doubtful but to be honest "who does that"? (except some hardcore fans)

@olafsch

I understand what you mean. I agree. There definitely are people who would use MorphOS or OS4 under WinUAE. I just enjoy real hardware even if it's old.

I rarely post here, so this is a totally outsiders view:

I don't like real machines anymore. I like to have everything virtual.

Hardware dies? Buy a new one, minimum install, restart my virtual machines and I am done.
Hardware is too slow? Buy a new one, minimum install, restart my virtual machines and I am done.
New system needed? Don't by new hardware, just create new virtual machine.

If you get used to that, you won't want a dedicated desktop machine (and an additional laptop maybe) to run MorphOS. You want a way (any way, UAE is fine here) to just launch it virtually.

Everybody is free to use whatever is available of course. But for someone like me, no matter how cheap the additional hardware is, I won't use it .

(And no, I am not a very modern computer user. Not many people using a shell in vi mode on Linux these days anymore).

Although I must admit, that I did not try AOS4 up to now. My WinUAE port does not yet support PPC, maybe it will change then .

I think some ppl in this discussion should think a bit about their tone. While being emotional stay polite and educated.
And remeber: the world is more than black and white. Amd while one thing may be true that doesn't mean that all others are wrong.

Quote:

I thought like this, too. Not anymore.
I used to have virtual Linux host machines on my real server for this and for that because I thought, as you, that when the hardware dies I have little effort and my VM is ready again.
I did that until I have actually seen how much resources and with that energy is wasted doing that.
After weeks my server system was unresponsive because after a while all resources were exhausted at the huge speed disadvantage VMs have.

VM, yes. Where it makes sense. But not if you can structure your stuff intelligently (for backup and simple recovery) on a real hardware.


Manfred

@TheMagicM

Your original question was:

Quote:

I tell you its 29,95 Euros

Quote:

Which is totally bullshit, because all you need is a x86 machine.

Then you start complaining about how garbage OS4 on UAE is and thats its not even as fast as a CSPPC, which is also pure bullshit from your side. Its already way faster, in some aspects even faster than some NG Amiga models.

And in case you wanna run MorphOS on new and available hardware, you'd have to pay even more.
When it comes to the alternatives you are pretty much cheaper with OS4.

Quote:

Now this is really you in bestform of bullshitting. hahahaha

I try to convince you? Thats how you comprehend what i say? Let me tell you this. I also wanna run MorphOS on real hardware and not emulated, but my personal taste isnt part of this discussion (at least from my side). I repeat it again for mentally retarded people like you: I am talking about the competitiveness of OS4.1 and MorphOS in general. Get it? it is not about my taste and my preferences.

Maybe you and i dont wanna run MorphOS in an emulator, but maybe hundreds of thousands of WinUAE users. and theres a huge market now for OS4.1, which means that they got a huge advantage now. Thats my point, nothing more, nothing less. I dont care what you prefer and like and what not.
And this is a huge plus for OS4.1.

Oh and when its too expensive for you to run OS4 natively, then go and get a second JOB! Thats how you put it right?

Quote:

well, actually it is a lot. because it offers you almost nothing in todays standards. But hey, you and i know, that MorphOS users are paying it mainly because of the love and affection they have towards that system. Go out and tell some normal sane people that they can buy an 10+ old laptop to run an operating system which doesnt even have a modern office solution or memory protection and that they would have to pay another 111 Euro for that system to be unlocked.
Everybodys doing it for the love and the enthusiasm of it. So just stop trolling against OS4. Some people like to spend 1000$, others are fine with a 300$ system. And both are overpriced for what they offer. period. But both options are just fine, theres nothing bad about it. i dont like OS4, just like AROS but i respect and tolerate everybodys decision. There is really no point in arguing about the price/performance ration in the amiga market.
Come to think that 68k systems are even much more expensive. hahaha. I hope you wont start trolling at the classics now...

And thanks for your "language" lessons, i do speak three languages and i'm pretty fine with that ;)

you moron.

[ Edited by Cego 22.02.2016 - 18:32 ]

double post.

[ Edited by Cego 22.02.2016 - 18:26 ]

Cego:

<nothing to reply>. Talked on IRC.

[ Edited by TheMagicM 22.02.2016 - 13:13 ]

yeah, we settled it on the IRC.

i apologize for my behaviour and harsh language. (now officially here on MZ)

Same here.. I apologize for the comments to Cego. Wasnt warranted.

Quote:

I'm so glad I registered at such a friendly site where opinion is freely expressed and people behave like mature adults...


Quote:

Yeah I noticed what a friendly place this is when people don't share the opinion of the "established" users ;) Arrogant WAS an accurate description IMHo


Quote:

Gosh... you realised being unpleasant to make your points made you look bad. Well done!