>>> if you were a SAM owner, would you want to spend $150 on an HD 7750 when you
>>> could get an earlier card for $20-30?

>> If I was a Sam460 owner then this would certainly be the case because I wanted to
>> also run OS4 with a 3D-supported graphics card. Thus, I would of course spend the
>> surcharge [...] for a 3D-supported GCN-based card instead of buying a cheaper
>> pre-GCN card unsupported in terms of 3D.

> You would.

...if I was a Sam460 owner, yes.

> But then, how much time have either of you spent using OS4?

My time spent using OS4 equals the time I have spent on a Sam460 ;-) For someone who doesn't want to run OS4 there's no reason to buy a Sam460. Thus, someone who buys a Sam460 wants to run OS4, either as sole OS or with MorphOS and/or Linux multi-boot options. I'm sure that virtually every Sam460 owner prefers his graphics card to be 3D-supported by every OS he boots on the machine.
Current and future X5000 owners are surely no different in that, but they should be able to install a second graphics card in the PCIe x4 slot (the PCIe x16 slot also has just 4 lanes connected, so bandwidth is the same).

> Until recently most Amiga software relied on composting,
> and they still managed to get fairly decent results.

Compositing doesn't work too well with real 3D programs (as opposed to apparent 2D programs which use 3D functions for effects), and it doesn't work at all for ports of 3D programs from other platforms that only support 3D hardware rendering.

> Most of the cards I've mentioned work fine under OS4.

...in 2D and Compositing. Bar ancient R100/R200-based cards, pre-GCN cards are not supported by Warp3D or Warp3D Nova, and thus also not supported by MiniGL or OpenGL ES 2.0.

> I'd settle for an R500 card in an X5000 right now. Then again, I'd primarily be running
> MorphOS or Linux, rarely OS4.

Yes, that's you. Most current and future X5000 owners' priorities are reversed, I bet. And there may be X5000 owners with priorities quite balanced between OS4 and MorphOS who would like to have 3D support under both OS.

I have to agree with Andreas Wolf on this topic Jim. Unless Mark and Frank need to work their way up through all the different video cards, in order to learn how each one works, and add 3D acceleration piece by piece, as they learn, it really does not make sense to me to try to support so many different video cards, when supporting just a half dozen should be more than adequate, with more being worked on in the future as necessary. Starting off with the video card that A-Eon has chosen to supply with X5000 systems that are sold as a complete computer system, would make sense to me.

Of course, I have no knowledge on how and why Mark (and/or Frank) are choosing which video cards to work on next, and I trust their judgement, but I hope that they are not doing more work than they really need to do, as I know it is taking a large part of their free time to work on these video card drivers.

If Mark (and/or Frank) skip several video cards, and only choose ones that make the most sense to support, I think the majority of the community will understand and approve of that course of action.

Quote:

Point me to the 7750, because I want one for my Lenovo SFF system (which currently has a 6450), the cost of those here is several times higher.
But it has to be a SFF card (that is what is shipped with the X5000 and what I need for the Lenovo).

In fact, if the 7750 is still shipped with the X5000 when I buy a system, I'm pulling it for install in my X64 system, and installing a 6970 or 7850.


[ Edited by Jim 08.01.2017 - 08:40 ]

Quote:

David, I'm not here to argue about what we want, just to guess what we ARE getting.
If YOU all want to wait for the GCN cards to be supported, by all means...wait.

I don't have a problem starting with an R500 or R600 card and replacing them as I upgrade.
Video cards are a cheap investment for me, AND I've gotten a BIG kick out of testing the cards I bought for Mark.
Before that I relied on lower end cards or SFF cards.
Even the 4870 was a revelation.
Guys, we have nothing like that in our repertoire.
And the 5850 is about twice as powerful.
The 7850 is not only fast, but surprisingly low draw.

I myself, I'll probably skip the R7 and R9 cards, I'd really like an RX470.

But honestly ALL of you, GET OFF IT.

It will be ready when its done, not a second sooner, and you ought to be grateful that these guys are willing to go to this much trouble.

PLUS, these drivers will be a great base for recompilation to X64.

>> Current best price on eBay Germany for used card: [...]
>> HD 7750: 25 EUR (= 26 USD)

> Point mew to the 7750

Unfortunately, it apparently was snapped up shortly after posting:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/182410655468

Current best price for used one is 48.50 EUR (= 51 USD):
http://www.ebay.de/itm/272507337364

> it has to be a SFF card

Sorry, I don't know if they are.

> that is what is shipped with the X5000

Looking through the offerings of the various X5000 distributors I can see that each of them bundles different cards with the system. It's apparently not like A-Eon is stipulating which card to sell with X5000 systems, as long as they are supported by Warp3D Nova.

> I'm not here to argue about what we want

Simply keep out of the discussion about what most MorphOS-interested current and future Sam460 or X5000 owners most probably want, then ;-)

> If YOU all want to wait for the GCN cards to be supported, by all means...wait.

That's exactly the point. Tackling the GCN-based cards earlier would mean less waiting for the above-mentioned target group, wouldn't it?

> I don't have a problem starting with an R500 or R600 card

You've made that more than clear by now, but at this point, this part of the discussion isn't about you.

> Video cards are a cheap investment

Our point is not about price but about the ability to use both OS4 and MorphOS with one 3D-supported graphics card in a system that is supported by both OS.

> we have nothing like that in our repertoire.

Our point is also not about performance, see above.

> surprisingly low draw

Our point is also not about power consumption, see above.

> honestly ALL of you, GET OFF IT.

Honestly, I don't think I, takemehomegrandma or amigadave will get off our opinions as to which graphics cards we think would make the most sense for most MorphOS-interested current and future Sam460 or X5000 owners to be supported next.

> you ought to be grateful that these guys are willing to go to this much trouble.

I sure am, but I think I'm allowed to have my own opinions about alleged MorphOS team decisions, and I also think I'm allowed to venture them here on MorphZone.

Sure Andreas, you're allowed to have whatever opinion you would like.
And right now it would appear that you, grandma, and David would like one of our hardest working, and most talented programmers to stop what he is doing and focus his attention not on a specific card, but a group of related cards that will require some additional research (and slow the development of the cards he's been working with).
Might happen, who knows...
Personally, as I have a 3870 sitting in waiting, I couldn't care.

I'm not in the drivers seat, nor would I want to be, Amigans are TOO demanding.
I'm just impressed that Mark is tackling this huge project, while some of you expect ALL the 2D drivers done before 3.10 is released (2D and 3D drivers now go hand in hand and that involves dozens of separate drivers). Or, of course, Mark could shift to the GCN cards, and then he would have to pick a specific target (because they are evolving too).

So, again, not my decision, AND I don't know what is going to happen because (as I've said more than a few times recently) I no longer ask questions about specifics. I trust these guys to make the decisions.
I am just helping Mark defray some costs.

But, since we're discussing GCN cards, what card would make a good focus? Amiga On The Lake is shipping 7750s. I don't know about the other vendors.

I have nine card here ready to ship, but I could include a few additional cards, including an HD 7850.

If I add Radeon HD 6850, 6970, and 7850 cards to that package it only increases to 12 cards (14 if I add two more). Of course, then there is the long delay getting there).

SO, by Spring, Bigfoot would have everything from R600 to GCN cards on hand.

BUT, the last card he mentioned working with was an R600, so I would expect that series to be first guys.
Then again, I could be wrong, because again, I don't ask.

I'll leave that up to you guys, because to me it seems...kind of ungrateful.

Edit @ Andreas, I checked out the HD4350 and its not needed, it uses the same core as the HD4550.
That has been the trick with all these cards, ATI/AMD gives them their numeric designation, but what is really important is what core they are based on.
Especially from the 6000 series up, where there is a lot of reuse of older tech.

Oh, and to all, I just added the HD7850 to the other nine cards, so that will arrive before the higher end 6000 cards.

[ Edited by Jim 08.01.2017 - 08:51 ]

> it would appear that you, grandma, and David would like one of our hardest working,
> and most talented programmers to stop what he is doing and focus his attention not
> on a specific card, but a group of related cards that will require some additional
> research (and slow the development of the cards he's been working with).

You misread on two levels. First, nobody here wants him "to stop what he is doing" currently. What was declared against was your proposition of working all the way up through every generation (R600, R700, R800, R900) before starting work on supporting any GCN-based cards. If R600 support is what's currently being worked on, this should be finished of course.
Second, the fact that we didn't propose a specific GCN-based card doesn't mean there shouldn't be focus on a specific card (or a number of specific cards). Of course, focus should be on the cards that were shipped with the AmigaOne 500 and Sam460 systems and those that are being shipped with the X5000 systems. For the AmigaOne 500 and Sam460 systems this would primarily be HD 77x0 (except HD 7790) and R7 250. For the X5000 see below.

> Amigans are TOO demanding.

Nobody here in this part of the discussion has demanded anything. There were just opinions stated.

> some of you expect ALL the 2D drivers done before 3.10 is released

Who does expect this? Names please.

> Mark could shift to the GCN cards, and then he would have to pick a specific target

Exactly.

> since we're discussing GCN cards, what card would make a good focus?
> Amiga On The Lake is shipping 7750s. I don't know about the other vendors.

I just had a look at the X5000 vendors:

Amiga On The Lake: HD 7750 or R9 270X (option)
Alinea: R7 250X
Amedia: R7 250X
Relec: R7 250X

So considering the cards shipped with AmigaOne 500 and Sam460 systems mentioned above, these are HD 77x0 (except HD 7790), R7 250(X) and R9 270X. These are all GCN1.

> the last card he mentioned working with was an R600, so I would expect that series
> to be first guys.

I certainly welcome R600 support.

> to me it seems...kind of ungrateful.

To me it seems you've been misreading what was stated.

> I checked out the HD4350 and its not needed, it uses the same core as the HD4550.

This means all the more that R700 support would start from HD 4350 :-)

> AMD gives them their numeric designation, but what is really important is
> what core they are based on.

Yes, I know.

> I just added the HD7850 to the other nine cards

Thanks. Core-wise the closest (but not the same) to this from my above list is the R9 270X.

> so that will arrive before the higher end 6000 cards.

Is graphics card support added in the order you ship them? ;-)

Wow alot of argueing about something neither of you knows (on which cards bigfoot works in which order and in what timeframe) and that won't change a bit (on which cards bigfoot works in which order and in what timeframe).



Thank god bytes on the internet are cheap these days.

>Is graphics card support added in the order you ship them?

My shipments, of course.
I have NO idea what Mark is planning, and no interest in bugging him about it or interjecting my opinion as to how he should approach the project.
As I've said before, I trust the developers to approach everything as they see fit.

As to the 4350, I'm sure that the R700 driver will cover it.
I personally wouldn't buy one, primarily because I can get 4450s cheaper.
And the 4000s don't really get interesting until the 4650/70.

As to the GCN1 cards, yeah, I'd assume the 7850 should serve.
I think the highest end card Mark mentioned already having was an HD7450 (Caicos, basically the same as a 6450, pre-GCN).

And I think Mark and Frank had 4650 cards for the SAM460 port.

I don't even know if they received cards with the X5000s, but I doubt it.
And if they did, were they similar to what is being included now?
Again, f'd if I know, I try not to ask too many questions (the less I know, the less I can blab about).

NOW, if you'd all like to send an R9 270x and possibly an HD7750 (or 7770), that is one less thing I need to worry about.

I've repacked my latest group of cards to include the 7850, and I'll get those out next week.
That leaves a few higher end 6000 cards to ship and Mark will have a fair representation of the cards after the R500 series.

Then all we'll have to worry about is GCN2, 3, and 4.

That, AND the fact that we could use an OpenGL upgrade.

Quote:

YES!

Thank you SO much for pointing that out.
I don't have a freaking clue what Mark's up to, and I'd never try to influence his course anyway since his abilities are vastly beyond my own.
Frankly, I spent more time last month asking him questions about South Africa, Christmas, and his general welfare than I did discussing MorphOS.

After all guys, these are people (talented people, but people) and I'm sure they get burned out talking shop constantly just like anyone else would.

So, kick back and relax, y'all.
The only statement I got on GCN is that it would be awhile.
How long? How the f*ck would I know?

The last time, when I was waiting for the R500 driver, and it popped up fairly quickly with a couple of features I didn't expect (AGP compatibility and Atom bios support).
When will the R600 driver be ready?
You guys ask, because I'm satisfied to wait.

And the R700 series? Well Frank and Mark have had one of those for awhile, so that (again) is anyone's guess.

The R800s? Mark has one, I have a few more in the current package (and three more for a shipment after that).

And soon he'll have one GCN1 card, but it could take as long as two months to get to him (South African customs appears to like to hold onto packages for a looonnnggg time).

So, to wrap up this prolonged diversion, I wouldn't expect GCN support with 3.10.
But you'll get a GCN driver...eventually.

[ Edited by Jim 08.01.2017 - 14:57 ]

> alot of argueing about something neither of you knows (on which cards bigfoot
> works in which order and in what timeframe)

I was arguing about which graphics cards most MorphOS-interested current and future Sam460 or X5000 owners most probably want supported sooner than later. And I was arguing against Jim's original proposition of working all the way up through every Radeon generation before starting work on supporting cards that would be best for the mentioned target group. I was certainly not arguing about "on which cards bigfoot works in which order and in what timeframe", because, as you say, I simply don't know "on which cards bigfoot works in which order and in what timeframe".

> that won't change a bit

This goes for the majority of arguing on the WWW, doesn't it? :-) But wait, our arguing did change a bit, namely that Jim will now include a GCN-based card into his shipment to bigfoot :-)

> I can get 4450s cheaper.

;-)

> I don't even know if they received cards with the X5000s, but I doubt it.
> And if they did, were they similar to what is being included now?

Most probably not.

> Then all we'll have to worry about is GCN2, 3, and 4. That, AND the fact that we could
> use an OpenGL upgrade.

Indeed.

@ Andreas,

Agreed, our primary disagreement is based on how we think this should be approached.
I don't really care if Mark wants to work on the earlier cards first (I don't even know what his plans are in regard to the GCN cards, except that he mentioned it would be awhile before those were supported).
If you guys want to push for more focus on the latter cards, by all means do so, I'm happy to wait.
And being a hardware head, I'd be happy upgrading as newer cards were supported.

> The only statement I got on GCN is that it would be awhile. [...]
> I wouldn't expect GCN support with 3.10.

I think nobody really does.

Quote:

Yep, I don't ever remember hearing it was to be included, I'm just happy to know its in the developer's sights.
I chaff at the bit as much as anyone, as I've already mentioned with my constant waffling on whether or not to settle for the dual core X5000.

But it will be cool, I just have to have patience, and I should eventually have a four core X5000 with a GCN based video card to round out my PPC collection.

Then I can wait for how ever long it takes to make the move to X64, WITH some damned cool hardware.

I do wish there were some SAM460s to be had though, it would make a good 'appetizer'.

I have received absolutely zero response from Acube when inquiring about that board.

[ Edited by Jim 08.01.2017 - 18:00 ]

In Frying Pan the DVD±R/W UJ-875 drive is found, and I can use it to write DVD±R/W discs, but it won't recognise DL discs it seems, so does anyone know if Jalapeno can use/write to DL discs, or Frying Pan, as I don't seem to be able to find any docs that indicate if it/they can/not?

I mention this as I put a DL DVD in my Matsushita (Panasonic) UJ-875, which is a DL DVD recorder/reader and I could see the disk listed on Ambient/MyMorphOS, but I couldn't get it to open or be read via MPlayer as that too could not 'see' the disc to open the disc files it seems.

I just wondered if anyone knows if Dual-Layer (DL) DVD drives and recording disks to them is supported with any software with MorphOS currently, and reading from them, or if it will be supported in future releases?

Might Blu-ray be supported at any time in the future - is it in any 'future-roadmap'?

Quote:

Well, I may be supported right now. Jalapeno is "just" a gui for OpenSource based components.

Check for the tools delivered in MOSSYS:Data/Jalapeno/. cdrecord already seems to support BR.

The problem is in any case that you need a proper source file system to prepare the data to burn. Reading files
from a Bluray is probably an issue as it needs a different file system from what I remember.

However I wont hold my breath for any more in that direction, as optical media for storage is quite dead these days.
There are faster and cheaper ways to store data these days. Playing movies is another problem due the encryption.

Quote:

Hmm... I will agree that optical media is dying, but dead?
I just picked up a 10 pack of DVD-R discs a couple of days ago because I wanted an easier to use boot medium than a USB key (for upgrading a laptop to Win10).
Of course, if the laptop didn't have a DVD drive (like my own without the dockng station)...

I must admit, I like optical media.
If blu ray discs had a reduced size instead of more storage than I need, I might consider that move.
But let's face it, USB drives are nice, small and pocketable.

The primary disadvantage?
I don't just give away a thumb drive.

I have no problem with giving away optical media.

> Reading files from a Bluray [...] needs a different file system from what I remember.

Yes, UDF 2.50+.

Quote:

DL should burn just fine with Jalapeno's cdrecord backend. *Afair* BD is enabled as well - you just wouldn't be able to read the BD on MorphOS afterwards.

Quote:
However, that doesn't answer the problem I have with a standard DVD+R DL disc with video material on it that my Sony DVR could play as standard, but that MPlayer couldn't access and that Frying Pan couldn't burn/find it as a useable DL DVD+R disc with it inserted in my UJ-875 Dual-Layer DVD±R/W drive.

Either the system does handle this media, or it doesn't, a 'fudged' answer is not of much use to anyone using MorphOS, is it?

If someone on the Dev Team can give a comprehensive Yes or No answer, and information on whether this issue is being, or going to be addressed in the future (near or far) then that would be what I was hoping to know, thanks.

Quote:

Neither FryingPan nor mplayer are part of the system, are they? I wish I could give you a yes/no regarding Jalapeno, but I do not currently have a DL-capable burner, so there's no way for me to verify things. It's been a couple of years since I worked on this...

OK, I appreciate your very quick reply, but if someone in the Dev Team can actually answer this question, when they get a free moment to do so I'd be very grateful.

I, as a MOS user, mistakenly take it for granted that MPlayer is basically part of MorphOS, as is Frying Pan, though I know Frying Pan was never authored by anyone on the Dev Team, but MPlayer has been worked on by others who are, AFAIK, but they are an often associated with being an intrinsic part of the useablility of MorphOS as a whole, but I will bear in mind they aren't part of MOS as such in the future.

A stupid question, but you DO have a dual layer capable drive, don't you?
The majority of the machines we now support did not come with dual layer compatible optical drives, and most of DVD drives I have seen that support this feature have an SATA interface.

Just checking...