> the Envy driver is broken.

According to cyfm, the reason why MorphOS doesn't support such card in the PCIe x1 slot of the Sam460 is that MorphOS can't currently see PCIe cards with PCI-based chipsets connected via (on-card) bridge chip to the PCIe x1 slot.

http://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=11256&forum=11&start=20

> I haven't read any complaints regarding AROS being prone to crashing often,
> so I don't think it is a common problem, but I don't read AROS forums, so I
> could be assuming too much and it might be less stable than I imagine. My point
> was that I don't think AEROS is any less stable than any other version of AROS.

You may want to read the AEROS review linked there:

http://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=11709&forum=3

Quote:

You do the same mistake as the author... generalizing Aros

it is one distribution on one hardware platform 6 months ago

>>> I haven't read any complaints regarding AROS being prone to crashing often,
>>> so I don't think it is a common problem, but I don't read AROS forums, so I
>>> could be assuming too much and it might be less stable than I imagine. My point
>>> was that I don't think AEROS is any less stable than any other version of AROS.

> You may want to read the AEROS review linked there:
> http://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=11709&forum=3

> You do the same mistake as the author... generalizing Aros

No, I don't. amigadave and me have been discussing the stability of AEROS for Raspberry Pi 2, and the review is about AEROS for Raspberry Pi 2. Where is the generalization on my part?

> it is one distribution on one hardware platform

Yes, the distribution and hardware platform amigadave and me have been discussing.

> 6 months ago

Indeed, there have been updates to AEROS for Raspberry Pi 2 after the review was published. It would be nice to know whether the problems mentioned by the reviewer have been addressed.

You can grab the demo. It is the version which was tested in this article.
It is 2 major releases behind. It doesn't work on a pi3 for instance and i386 emulation has seen also a big version jump.

I'm new here and the high price really scares me. I am one of those people who just like to try out different OS and hardware, and happened to have a powerbook laying around for the past few years so the other day I loaded morph onto it to try it out. I really like that it is something different but what really scare me is lack of software, among other stability issues. First of I am new the the whole Amiga thing so I don't have too many retro expectations, all I know is compared to other systems the amount of software seems low and the usability is very different. I have had to relearn how to use this system as nothing is the same as anything else I have ever used. I have had many performance and usability issues that would not make me want to spend $125. Many times the whole system randomly locks up on me or crashes and Im forced to reboot. This combined with the bleak future outlook (How long can we continue using outdated powerpc hardware that apple stopped making 10+ years ago? and is this very feasible). youtube videos in the lowest quality stutter and major web services fail to load at all without any flash support. Basic HTML pages run the CPU up to 100% for a good 20 seconds and im using the 1.67GHz powerbook 2GB DDR2 ram fastest one ever made. ATI RAGE stopped hitting the mark 10 years ago....

> How long can we continue using outdated powerpc hardware that
> apple stopped making 10+ years ago?

Sam460 and AmigaOne X5000 to the rescue ;-)

> youtube videos in the lowest quality stutter

http://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=11710&forum=3&start=3

> Basic HTML pages run the CPU up to 100% for a good 20 seconds

That's not "basic HTML" then but JavaScript overload.

> ATI RAGE stopped hitting the mark 10 years ago....

Huh?

@Ozfer

Welcome to the blue camp

Yes, Amiga is very different from everything else so you have a pretty steep learning curve here. You are spot on that we have a terrible lack of modern software, which is sadly not likely to improve anytime soon. But there are still a lot of useful software out there if you just know where to look.

Any OS friendly app that doesn't bang the Amiga hardware should work with only minor bugs in MorphOS. Just ask what kind of software you need and chances are there is a working clone of it somewhere.

As for the crashes, it does sound like a hardware problem as MorphOS don't crash by doing nothing. My guess is the RAM.

There is a roadmap to change to another CPU and update the OS so it will have all modern features needed. But the Team don't have shedules as they never know if they can deliver on time. They usually just tell about upcoming features when it's 100% sure it will come.

MorphOS is a hobby OS, and the Team makes very little money out of it. If you find it too expensive for you then that is fine. Just play around with the free version instead. And if you change your mind you can pay whenever you want.

If you want some tips you can visit my blog: www.morphosuser.wordpress.com. I made it with beginners in mind.

Once again, welcome!

Quote:

It's definitely your RAM. I have the same model of PowerBook and the second RAM slot is faulty. It's an extremely common manufacturing fault with these machines.

Remove the second ram stick and the random lock ups will vanish.

I don't understand why morphos doesnt just get based on linux or something, port the whole mui ambient thing to linux where it could run flawlessly, and with the jit emulator it would be 99% identical to what exists now but better in many ways.

> I don't understand why morphos doesnt just get based on linux or something,
> port the whole mui ambient thing to linux where it could run flawlessly,
> and with the jit emulator it would be 99% identical to what exists now but
> better in many ways.

m68k programs also need the presence of the AmigaOS API, which "linux or something" doesn't provide.

Quote:

What fun would that be? :)

Quote:

Just run UAE on Linux.

I haven' red everything in this topic but this is what I think about the MorphOS prices.

I have a Mac Mini G4 with MorphOS and I think the price is OK. What I don't understand and don't like about the prices are the different prices for the different systems. I mean: WHY? I don't understand this. For me this is illogical.

Anyway: I paid for MorphOS because I want to support the AmigaOS like OS. I'll be honest: For me there is so far only one advantage: It boots REALLY fast! Everything else works for me better on my Linux system, especially the Amiga-Emulation with UAE/FS-UAE. If I would get a nearly perfect AmigaOS clone for x86 architecture I would pay even more (up to 250 € without thinking about the price).

Of cource there i another big advantage about MorphOS: It feels like AmigaOS!

[ Editiert durch dexter 22.06.2016 - 00:28 ]

You should probably stay with emulation.
Personally, I have a couple of legacy systems for Amiga software.
But the latest emulators do a great job of running legacy software with what ever hardware you would like to be emulated.

I am relatively sure that most of us are ready to jetison legacy compatibility.
After all, old Amiga software is just that...old (and pretty obsolete).

So what is likely to move to X86 is the best features that MorphOS has (enhanced without the constraints that legacy compatibility requires), not necessarily features of AmigaOS.

> What I don't understand and don't like about the prices are the
> different prices for the different systems. I mean: WHY? I don't
> understand this. For me this is illogical.

See comment #186.

Quote:

I think that MorphOS is very "Amiga-Like" (though I dislike that term), when compared to anything other than the "Real" thing (AmigaOS1.0 to AmigaOS3.9), or AmigaOS4.1FE. Those are the only two OSes that can claim a more original Amiga experience (IMO), that I know of. MorphOS is more advanced and faster than any other Amiga inspired OS, and I expect that it will remain very "Amiga-Like", even after the platform switch to x64. I expect the MorphOS Dev. Team to keep all the best features of our current MorphOS, lose the Petunia compatibility layer, and give us real 64bit, memory protected and text book SMP.

Those are my expectations anyway, and from what little has been shared about the goals of the team, I don't think my expectations are far off from what they are working to accomplish. Maybe some of you have heard or read news that tells a different story?

[ Edited by amigadave 22.06.2016 - 00:37 ]

No Dave, I expect it to be a very familiar environment.
And we can hope for a good uae port.
That shouldn't be a problem with an X64 system.

But if all you want is legacy software, emulation has gotten pretty damned impressive at this point.

I was just discussing this with a friend who stopped by to drop off a CD32 system (a neat little toy, I may just burn all my legacy games to CDs for that).
And what we can now do under emulation surpasses what legacy hardware can do.
It seems to be encouraging new development.

With a faster X64 processor we will actually see an improvement in the performance of legacy software.

As titles are still being introduced for the 68K Amiga, AND the new software usually demands high end hardware, emulation is a bright spot in our future.

After all, it is much cheaper to buy an X64 system than it is to obtain a well expanded Amiga.
And those are much more capable than legacy systems.

What I really meant in my first post is if you want legacy support, it is not required at the OS level.
Emulation has become a more than acceptable solution.

And, if you just want to run legacy software that capability is available on a lot of platforms.

What we will have with an X64 platform for MorphOS is the best Amiga like OS running on more capable hardware, with full support for features that legacy support limits.

It should be too cool.

Edit - I think we are really leaving Hyperion in the dust with this move.



[ Edited by Jim 22.06.2016 - 11:16 ]

@Jim @Amigadave

I had a discussion with one NG game developer recently why there is no 68k version of his game. He first mentioned speed but then admitted that emulation would be fast enough but in his view would make no sense because then you could also use the Windows version. That on the other side made no sense to me either because why amiga NG versions at all? People buy it for nostalgic reasons and because they want to play it on the platform they like. I am personal very happy with using my virtual emulated environment and do not need real hardware to be happy. You have everything you need, you can do all sorts of things and you have much more resources than on any real hardware, even more than on the so called NG systems.

Quote:
A big concern is that, after decades of neglect, the development environment is simply very much outdated on 68K platforms, which makes porting various types of software (3D games, for instance) especially challenging.

Plus, developers obviously target platforms that they themselves are interested in. If someone prefers an NG platform, then this is where the focus is. Now imagine a port to 68K actually requires more time than the inital work on an NG platform (see my previous remark about the development tools), then it should not be surprising that there is limited appeal here. A straight recompile is not going to work for many titles, unless you happen to be using Hollywood or FreePascal.

Moreover, many developers involved with retro and related platforms derive pride from writing efficient code and finding out how much performance you can get out of hardware that is generally seen as "underpowered" by outsiders. When you are developing for emulation, this motivation is lacking since even the most efficient code is going to be slower than a native implementation.

I just burned a new CD32 game today.
Not written with particularly efficient code.
But its entertaining and it did not appear too hard to create.
But then, my idea of tough used to be trying to get an 8 bit system with 64k or less of memory and video that was often little more than a dumb frame buffer to do something useful.

The flip side of that being the far more complex task of attempting a project on a PPC based system.
Learning MUI, tiny GL, C, Python.
Seriously Andre, I'd find 6809 or 68000 machine code simpler to work with.

Quote:

MorphOS Dev. Team left Hyperion "in the dust" a long time ago. In fact, I don't think that Hyperion has ever been close enough behind the MorphOS Dev. Team to even see them flying further ahead at an ever increasing pace. Without A-Eon and AmigaKit support, would we even have any progress made on AmigaOS4.x anymore, or would Hyperion have just given up (as they probably should do), and just Open Source the OS and write off their losses as a tax loss, if that is possible. There is no doubt in my mind that the Amiga community would do a much better job at upgrading AmigaOS4.x at a much faster pace, than Hyperion has done with their limited (almost non-existent) resources and budget. Development of AROS has been slow, but not as slow, or as misdirected as AmigaOS4.x. I often wonder if AmigaOS4.x users maybe would have been better off if Hyperion had never tricked "McBill" into losing the IP rights to AmigaOS? McBill certainly couldn't have done much worse than Hyperion has done in the same amount of time Hyperion has been in control, and McBill maybe would have sold the rights to someone more capable, or otherwise found a way to get development going again, perhaps with community funded support, or perhaps funding from Trevor and Matthew, in exchange for a percentage of the sales? Who knows what might have happened, but I can't imagine anything that would be much worse than what we have now with Hyperion in control.

Edit: (spelling and grammar corrections)

[ Edited by amigadave 22.06.2016 - 22:51 ]

@amigadave

The only thing McBill would have done (or better tried as he was and is a complete failure) is coming up with an investment-scam around OS4.

Cos that is what Amino has been about from the start.

[ Edited by Kronos 23.06.2016 - 11:35 ]

@ASiegel

The developer I talked to has a self-developed framework that he uses to create games so I would say supporting 68k basically mean adapting it one time. Yes certainly supporting NG is for fun mainly, obvious not for commercial reasons (or at least not much), but besides personal interest or fun the 68k crowd including those who use emulation is by far the biggest market so I am wondering why it was not supported by all amiga developers that are left.

@Amigadave

Just my personal view, most in the amiga community that are still active are here for retro reasons, for daily work they use a modern PC or Mac, have smartphones and tablets. The interest in another "modern" platform is limited (expecially if it will not offer real advantages compared to current mainstream platforms). Vampire/Apollo perfectly fits in the market and will sell in thousands. NG platforms will always compared to the other platforms and not accepted as long they not offer real advantages. I (as many others) feel at home in the 68k "retro" world, I do not need or want a "hyper-OS" with 64bit, SMP and MP because this already run on my notebook (including plenty of software not available on any NG platform). The competition on X86/X64 is very heavy, on ARM there might be more chances (f.e. Raspberry) but only "if" there is enough modern software. People in the community are still too hardware and OS-feature orientated, people today use devices and apps, content rules. Even Microsoft gives development software for free because they understood that only content sells today. In this high-competitive world MorphOS NG or whatever has no realistic chance except one of the camps manages to create a modern platform with up-to-date software even more advanced than what is available f.e. on Windows. Of course MorphOS developers finally do the ISA transition for fun and personal interest but I do not think it will add many new users or developers, this change should have done 10 years ago at a time where still were relative higher numbers of users and developers left, today it is too late already. Some existing users might buy it, perhaps even some might join but the "counter" will be steep at first but then will be flat again. It is funny today that it seems many former NG users and developers seem to go "back to the roots" again and drop NG and develop for amiga (=68k).

[ Editiert durch OlafSch 23.06.2016 - 11:31 ]

Quote:
Have you considered that this "one adaption" is already going to require a substantial investment in terms of time? Plus, I was talking about development in general and not one very specific use case.

Quote:
You just acknowledged that people develop for self-gratification and then you start talking about "markets"...

Plus, even if one were to assume that there is a market to speak of and that it somehow mattered, the total amount of theoretical users is hardly the only applicable metric. What platform is being used the most in terms of hours? What percentage of the users are interested in your particular type of software? (How many people run productivity software via emulation, for instance?)

Quote:
Read my previous post. Because it is a goddamn pain to properly support for more complex projects.

Is gaining X amount of users worth to spend Y amount of hours of your limited free time dealing with archaic development tools on an emulated platform that you personally do not care for much?

As A-Eon continue to back port some of their software titles to 68k, perhaps the development environment is going to be improved out of necessity. But as it is, I find it quite easy to understand why 68k struggles to get ports from NG platforms.