I keep forgetting about the current installed base .
Any cards supporting OpenGL 3.3 or higher would advance 3D.
If you factor in the current installed base it might not be worth a developing any though further.

Quote:

I rather think that what's implied here is that the drivers (for the cards running the Spencer game) are....not doing very well.

Polite but nice speculation .

> x5000 is shipped with Warp3D Nova card with no older Warp3D support

All cards supported by Warp3D Nova are also supported by "older Warp3D" via Warp3D-SI.

> any full PCI-E card support (with full 3D) after 9600 and X14xx

R3xx: 9800 XT
R4xx: X800/X850 XT
R5xx: X1950 Pro/XT (also, there is no X14xx)

> or whatever were the last PCI models

Why not AGP?

> would be great 3.11+ archievement.

You mean 3.12+. 3.11 has already been released.

> I suppose these drivers could be legacy backported to x64 if needed

I don't think any port to x64 would classify as a backport ;-)

> Topic is Peg2 but also about MOS gfx cards.

Chain-Q's comment you replied to and quoted twice was only about graphics cards on Pegasos II running MorphOS.

The Polaris cards may not support Warp3D-SI.
Possible solution.


.

[ Edited by Spectre660 16.08.2018 - 19:36 ]

Quote:
With regard to MorphOS 3.x, users with (usually non-upgradable) R2/300 GPUs outnumber users with PCI-E systems by a giant margin, which is unlikely to change unless perhaps the X5000 receives a massive price cut.

That said, it is not like the hardware capabilities of these GPUs have been fully utilized yet. There is still room for improvements.

Quote:
That seems like a rather arbitrary statement.

I would like to refer you to my game console example again. The PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 were released 12 and 13 years ago. Both have had their CPU performance compared to PowerMac G5 systems. Both also feature GPUs that are more than a decade old as well. Yet, when you look at titles such as Alan Wake, Crysis 3, Forza 4 or GTA 5, they show 3D graphics effects that outclass anything running on any PowerPC desktop operating system today by far. (Or small-niche i386 operating systems for that matter.)

This just shows it does not matter when your GPU was released but how you use it.

Andre has a really good point here.
The progressive refining and polishing of the R200 driver yielded a big jump in performance, and our drivers don't fully utilize that hardware.
When you consider the features in the later Terascale gpus we're adopting, and the fact that our drivers don't utilize these gpus significantly differently than the R200s, all we are really gaining is an increase in the speed of basic operations.

So OpenGL 3.3? If the OS doesn't support that functionality, does it matter?



[ Edited by Jim 17.08.2018 - 15:17 ]

Andreas_Wolf wrote:

> x5000 is shipped with Warp3D Nova card with no older Warp3D support

All cards supported by Warp3D Nova are also supported by "older Warp3D" via Warp3D-SI.

Again, I throught so until tried. Warp3D support needs a separate, payable driver from AmiStore that is NOT included with Enhancer

> any full PCI-E card support (with full 3D) after 9600 and X14xx

R3xx: 9800 XT
R4xx: X800/X850 XT
R5xx: X1950 Pro/XT (also, there is no X14xx)

Thanks, that was most informative. I believe X1950 has a great chances being both OS4 and MOS compatibile.

> or whatever were the last PCI models

Why not AGP?

Because beside Peg2 only old AmigaOnes use AGP.

> would be great 3.11+ archievement.

You mean 3.12+. 3.11 has already been released.

Probably some Cloanto minor fix I missed.

> I suppose these drivers could be legacy backported to x64 if needed

I don't think any port to x64 would classify as a backport

I ment drivers done first for x64 rel. and then backported to maintaned PPC64 release, if that is priority order.

[ Edited by vox 17.08.2018 - 20:56 ]

Quote:

The X1950 like the X1650 I am currently using on my X5000 is compatible with both but sadly there is no Warp3D on these cards under AmigaOS 4. You can use Wazp3D but I’ll be honest this performs better in a blue shade than it does in a red one. Case in point Wipeout 2097.

For the time being at least if you wish to run both MorphOS and AmigaOS on the X5000 you have to sacrifice Warp3D/Warp3D Nova on AmigaOS 4. I guess the deciding factor is down to ones own personal needs and desires.

Each OS has its pluses and minuses too, striking a balance is perhaps the best option 😉

Quote:
As you should be aware, the only PowerMac G5 models that are officially supported by MorphOS use AGP graphics cards... (And these systems are quite a bit faster than a Pegasos2 both in terms of CPU and GPU performance too.)

> our drivers don't utilize [Terascale] gpus significantly differently than the R200s

At least for now there's still a significant difference: one is 3D-supported, the other isn't :-)

> If the OS doesn't support [OpenGL 3.3] functionality, does it matter?

At least porting more recent games (OpenGL 3.3 is from 2010) may require newer OpenGL than MorphOS currently provides.

Quote:

Yes, I am aware, but there are also dual and quad core G5s with PCI-E
and it would be best to also support them. PCI-E card support is a must
now with x5000 and SAM460 and x64 transition.

I am aware and well remember how AGP was step up to PCI.

> Thanks, that was most informative.

Note that what I listed are AGP cards, not PCI cards.

> I believe X1950 has a great chances being both OS4 and MOS compatibile.

Yes, just lack of 3D support on OS4 side.

>> Why not AGP?

> Because beside Peg2 only old AmigaOnes use AGP.

...and MorphOS-supported PowerMac G4 and PowerMac G5.

>> You mean 3.12+. 3.11 has already been released.

> Probably some Cloanto minor fix I missed.

No, you were talking about MorphOS at that point.

>>> I suppose these drivers could be legacy backported to x64 if needed

>> I don't think any port to x64 would classify as a backport ;-)

> I ment drivers done first for x64 rel. and then backported to maintaned PPC64 release

That's clearly not what you meant by the quoted part. You were talking about that direction separately.

If we are talking AGP cards the higher end cards Radeon supported currently up to the ATI FireGL X3 are OpenGL 2.0 . Everything in the higher series are OpenGl 3.3 .
An observation under Linux Powerpc was that the game Torcs would not render properly with a OpenGl 2.1 video card but would with an OpenGl 3.3 card


[ Edited by Spectre660 18.08.2018 - 08:03 ]

>> our drivers don't utilize [Terascale] gpus significantly differently than the R200s

>At least for now there's still a significant difference: one is 3D-supported, the other isn't

Good point. Earlier cards have 3D support. And the R200s even have Warp3D support.

>> If the OS doesn't support [OpenGL 3.3] functionality, does it matter?

>At least porting more recent games (OpenGL 3.3 is from 2010) may require newer OpenGL than MorphOS currently provides.

An update to TinyGL would be nice.
OpenGL 3.3 would be a good target, better than OpenGL ES.

Once you have the main infrastructure in place additional wrappers make things interesting .
Hopefully porting will become quick and relatively painless .

wrapper EGL OpenGLES 2.0

GL4ES: another OpenGL over OpenGLES2 emulation

These demos already work with Polaris cards .

[ Edited by Spectre660 20.08.2018 - 12:08 ]

Quote:

That is really nice advancement on Hans side, Kudos, but I see no point
in it (beside game conversion) on a computer that does not have a proper
office or a browser, for a starter.

With only Enhancer and Gfx driver being done, and not OS 4.2, Libre and TW/newer Odyssey port OS4 will remain plausable toy to look at, forever.

Its my belief AEON has really mixed their priorities, or decided to consiously go for easier goals that can cash in. Mind that OS 4.2, Libre and browser have been promised back at x1000 release days, 2011/2012, that is, six years ago. OS 4.2 was prepaid by x1000 users.

At the other hand, drivers for gfx cards are advancing, but require constant cash-in, which I find embaressing so far.

- 1.x driver purchased with x1000 just to have in WB
- 1.x driver purchased again to have CD install (silly me, believed it will be updated for free for owners)
- 2.x driver purchased with Enhancer to have SI 3D and better Emotion playback
- need to purchase additional driver to have old Warp3D via AmiStore (!?!!!!)
- We will now have 3.x driver for Polaris and some enhancements ...

Sorry, that is starting to cost as an office suite.

I prefer MOS approach where you buy the OS, and drivers are developed inside that price. At least for "supported hardware".

> browser have been promised back at x1000 release days, 2011/2012

And browser is what OS4 users got (ReAction-OWB, Timberwolf, MUI-OWB, Odyssey) :-)

Quote:

Dont forget the Ibrowse bundled. Beside Odyssey that used to work quite a long time, and would if they provided updating - I cant really tell you which of mentioned is better and worse. TW had quite fair results in one OS4 version session it worked on x1000.

Hope ranting will stop as soon MOS and Vamp setups are done

Quote:

Please, are there some benchmarks to compare Radeon9800 and HD4xxx ?
For example SDLBench and MPlayer. And please, is it PCI card?
Or some new ideas about best card for Pegasos2?

Just now I overclocked my Pegasos 2 to 1.33GHz and want also upgraded graphics. I take Radeom 9800Pro and wil try overclocking. But maybe HD4xxx will be better choice.

Quote:

That is an accomplishment, but I think I would have just looked for a universally keyed R360 based card. At least you'd have 3D support. Although with the R700, you do still get overlay support. I don't play a lot of games, so 3D is less important.

And if Mark follows his progressive evolution path, the R600 and the R700 cards would be the most likely to receive 3D support first.
Personally, I'd like to see 3D support for higher end cards.

But the cards supported by Warp3D Nova, Radeon HD 77xx-79xx series graphics card (excluding the Radeon HD 7790), Radeon HD R7 240/240D, Radeon HD R7 250, Radeon HD R7 250E, Radeon HD 250X/265, and the Radeon HD R9 270/270X/280/280X are all getting king of dated.

Jumping to Radeon RX, Vega, or Navi would at least give us up to date gpus.

Although...I did like the Radeon HD 7850/7870. I sent one to Mark, but its not on the compatibility list (its a GCN card, we aren't up to those yet). GCN gen 1 and gen 2 would give us a lot of compatibility with OS4.

[ Edited by Jim 19.05.2019 - 18:10 ]

>> Pega2-2GB-RadeonHD.png

> is it PCI card?

Yes, it is.

> Or some new ideas about best card for Pegasos2?

As written in comment #126, the most recent card to work in the Pegasos II should be the Radeon HD5450 (albeit no overlay support for now).

> if Mark follows his progressive evolution path, the R600 and the
> R700 cards would be the most likely to receive 3D support first.
> Personally, I'd like to see 3D support for higher end cards.

Change of mind? ;-)

> the cards supported by Warp3D Nova, Radeon HD 77xx-79xx series
> graphics card (excluding the Radeon HD 7790), Radeon HD R7 240/240D,
> Radeon HD R7 250, Radeon HD R7 250E, Radeon HD 250X/265, and the
> Radeon HD R9 270/270X/280/280X are all getting king of dated.

That's why Warp3D Nova has started supporting Polaris/GCN4 seven months ago:

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=11&topic_id=12151&start=124

> GCN gen 1 and gen 2 would give us a lot of compatibility with OS4.

Make that 4 instead of 2. OS4 jumped straight to GCN4 from GCN1, skipping GCN2 and GCN3.

Quote:
Yes. I was try to find universal-keyed R360.
But - the best R360 card I found is probably 9800 XT (cca 8% faster then my 9800PRO), only 1.5V version.
The only universal AGP with R360 what I found was ATI FireGL X2-256 - and this have different RAM config, i.e. it cannot be flashed to 9800XT. The best solution seems to be slightly overclock my 9800PRO.

Because I need more compositing and prefer actual Morphos SDL games over 3D games, I was asking for benchmarks. Doesn't matter, if I get some HD4xxx, I test it and post benchmarks here.

[ Edited by sailor 20.05.2019 - 20:57 ]

>Make that 4 instead of 2. OS4 jumped straight to GCN4 from GCN1, skipping GCN2 and GCN3.

I rather liked GCN1 myself.
GCN2, since my only experience with that was an R7 260X, was a bit of a disappointment.

I believe Mark has a representatives of GCN 1, 2, 3, and 4.

I'd just like to be able to use a Radeon 7770.

Although...an RX580 would be nice.
I believe Mark mentioned owning an RX570, so GCN4 support is not an impossibility.

Addendum: As Navi is apparently GCN derived, that would make it GCN5 wouldn't it (as Radeon VII appears to just be GCN4 on steriods).

We haven't even ventured into GCN support, and the last GCN generation is due to be launched this year.

Modern video card support, improved OpenGL support, SMP, and memory protection.
All of which could be started on our higher end PPC systems, but are a must for an X64 variant.

[ Edited by Jim 20.05.2019 - 23:30 ]