Quote:
IIRC MPlaywer with Altivec gains about 15% speed over the non Altivec version.

Btw.: A shame the 864x Pegasos" didn't made it: Not the major bottle neck of existing G4 systems (slow bus), but with low wattage and optionally with two cores. An 8610 (single core, 1.3GHz, NEC "redtail" (IIRC) board) was even shown to decode FullHD. Chance missed and gone many years ago. And since these chances are long gone I massively advocate since a couple of years the ISA switch to x64. PPC is dead, I cried some tears for it, but eventually you need to look forward then. MorphOS on i7 or Ryzen.. stop it, i am wetting my pants!

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On MorphOS it's used more than you perhaps may think, but for stuff being discussed here (video encoding/decoding, rendering, etc) it is a big and important performance booster.


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If I interpret Andreas Wolf's benchmarks above, it says that the X5000 has a slight upper hand for most (non-SIMD) integer operations. For floating point and memory speed, it seems to be the other way round. And SIMD, Floating Point and memory are kind of essential for many day to day things, like codecs encoding/decoding and other "multimedia" situations, not to mention rendering, image processing, etc.

And then the G5 has the benefit of much higher clock frequencies on top of it all, so...

You may of course like/want an X5000 for several reasons, and you may even prefer it over a G5 system for some reasons as well. But I don't see how the X5000 wins over G5's in performance, I don't see how it would be a "G5 killer".

And then you factor in the price in the equation...

Looking at it through 2017-glasses, I'd say the X5000 is about on par with all other PPC stuff from more than a decade ago. Who cares what is slightly faster or slower in one or another area of measurement, when the situation in total is so off the charts behind? The rest of the world moved several dimensions ahead since these performance levels at all were relevant in desktop computing.

Here we are now, looking at how G4's and X1000 and X5000 can decode 720p x.264 streams, and the G5 can do it in 1080p. While the rest of the world is at 4k and x.265. My phone films in 4k. All films of my children, family activities etc. You know. It's everyday stuff now, not science fiction. My next monitor will be 4k. 720p isn't really funny then.

Of course there are better/smarter ways to decode video streams, by letting the GPU offload the CPU for example. But the need for CPU grunt power doesn't go away. It's still needed for a lot of other things in everyday computing. PPC is hopelessly left dimensions behind.

In my eyes, the move to x64 is urgent.

I've never disagreed with either of you two on that point, and the fact is WE are apparently moving to X64.

When and how long it will take to complete is anyone's guess, but that journey has started, so we are one up on the competition.

And we have, or will have, systems that represent about the best that we can get with this ISA.
Two things I'd still like to see happen, the T2080 laptop and a port of MorphOS to PCIe PowerMac G5s.

One thing I see NO point in what so ever is Tabor. Why would I want to invest any money in that much of a downgrade?

And yes, the cpu in the X5000 isn't anything but a lateral move, at least in terms of power. Its really the other elements of the e5500 and e6500 cored cpus Soc that drive my interest. PCIe, higher bandwidth memory, (somewhat) faster SATA, etc.

As to video decoding, if we aren't going to adopt gpu assisted decoding (which would vary somewhat with each gpu), there are decoding ICs available for both PCI and PCIe applications that drivers could be written for.

I just don't see the point in using 70-100% of our available cpu power on one task.
Not when the demands on a Linux, Windows, or MacOS system are so much lower.

>>> another advantage of the P50X0 cpu? DDR3 and much higher memory bandwidth,
>>> that will [...] help close the gap with G5s (the best G5s only offer DDR2).

>> If I interpret Andreas Wolf's benchmarks above, it says that the X5000 has
>> a slight upper hand for most (non-SIMD) integer operations. For floating
>> point and memory speed, it seems to be the other way round.

> Its really the other elements of the e5500 and e6500 cored cpus Soc that drive
> my interest. PCIe, higher bandwidth memory, (somewhat) faster SATA, etc.

Regarding memory performance, my G5 clearly destroys the X5000 as can be seen from the benchmarks in this thread, despite what's written on spec papers.

> there are decoding ICs available for both PCI and PCIe applications that drivers
> could be written for.

Indeed, but I'd still favour an ASMP solution to keep my 2nd CPU from feeling bored. After all, it is unremovably sitting there constantly drawing current and creating heat. I'd consider using a dedicated expansion card for video decoding (or transcoding) an option as soon as MorphOS supports switching off (or power saving modes for) the 2nd G5 CPU.

> I just don't see the point in using 70-100% of our available cpu power on one task.

I don't have a problem with that, especially if it's spare CPU power anyway.

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Big shocker there!

I think you are the only one here who liked to claim they were 2 completely unrelated companies

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Well, they say that you can safely pull it out (as long as CPU in socket A stays in place)...

>>> Leaman Computing Ltd. ("AmigaKit") is not A-Eon Technology Ltd.

>> "In order to bundle forces, A-EON Technology considers acquiring AmigaKit."
>> http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&u=http://www.amiga-news.de/de/news/AN-2017-01-00060-DE.html

> you [...] liked to claim they were 2 completely unrelated companies ;-)

Your recollection is flawed. As even your quote shows, what I've been claiming is that Leaman Computing Ltd. ("AmigaKit") and A-Eon Technology Ltd. are two separate companies, which is still true as far as I know and will remain true until one has acquired the other. As to relatedness of the companies, I've never grown tired of making clear that Matthew Leaman is the sole managing director of both companies, and that he is also the main shareholder (50%) of A-Eon and the sole owner of AmigaKit.
The concept that two companies owned and/or directed by the same person(s) doesn't mean they're not separate companies shouldn't be unknown to you.

Btw, as recently as 5 days ago Leaman has incorporated a new company called "Amiga Technology Ltd". He is listed as the owner and sole managing director:

https://www.companysearchesmadesimple.com/company/uk/10732120/amiga-technology-ltd/

Maybe this is supposed to be the new company merging A-Eon and Leaman Computing?

>> my 2nd CPU [...] is unremovably sitting there

> they say that you can safely pull it out (as long as CPU in socket A stays in place)

Last I remember reading was that it was possible but that afterwards the system fans will run 100% all the time. Or would fan recalibration help in this case?

Quote:

setenv boot-args cpus=1
reset-all

From open firmware doesn't help?

Edit: Answering myself from 4 years ago.

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=11&topic_id=9353&post_id=102605&viewmode=flat&sortorder=1&showonepost=1

I think dementia might be setting in early lol

[ Edited by Intuition 25.04.2017 - 17:58 ]

>I don't have a problem with that, especially if it's spare CPU power anyway.

Me either, IF its the spare cpu.
If its the primary cpu, its f'ing irritating.

Besides, those discreet ICs with their fixed algorithms lack flexibility and programability.

Oh, and thanks for the word on memory bandwidth, although that does make me want a PCIe G5 even more, since it ought to offer even higher memory bandwidth than our current systems.

You guys keep talking, and you'll talk me out of the X5000.
Which would be a shame as we still don't have anything, outside of the SAM460, that will take newer video cards.

Then again, its a future collectors item, so...

Quote:

That was part of my thinking regarding my purchase of the X1000, but I was also incorrect in thinking that the X1000 would possibly/probably be the last PPC AmigaOne computer ever designed and manufactured (when I was first thinking about my X1000 purchase. Things changed by the time I actually took delivery of my X1000, and Trevor had informed me about the future X5000 plans, even suggesting to me that I wait, and get the X5000 instead). The X1000 still has the distinction of being the only (to my knowledge) desktop computer produced for sale to the general public which uses the infamous PA6T CPU, which is not outstanding in its performance when compared to much older G4 and G5 CPUs, but it is a fairly low power usage PPC CPU, and has a few nice features. The X1000 was just about a decade or so too late in being manufactured, to make it interesting to anyone else in the computer world.

A quick update:

I traded some messages with Wiktor today, but he said he has really been too busy to get much use out of of the X5000, and he was thinking of selling it.
He has not tried too display HD video with it.

I asked him to give it a shot, if he had the time.

Maybe we should have just asked for further PPC Mac support...

I'm still planning on buying the X5000, but part of that will primarily be to own a piece of history.
A 64bit Qorlq based AmigaOne, that runs both PPC NG Amiga operating systems. Now that Freescale is a rapidly fading memory...

So will MorphOS be released for this thing or not is all I want to know. I am seriously considering one if it is, just to clear up some office space and be able to try OS4 on the same machine I run MorpgOS on. My G5 is nice, but it has no OS4 support.

I may even clear out some of my classic hardware if 4.1FE runs classic stuff as well as I hear it does.

> will MorphOS be released for this thing or not is all I want to know.

So far I've not come across any indication that the responsible MorphOS team members changed their minds regarding X5000 support in MorphOS 3.10. But as always, we won't know for sure before it's actually released.

> if 4.1FE runs classic stuff as well as I hear it does

It does with basically the same limitations as MorphOS.

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Thanks for info, more or less what I have been expecting.

Update:

> as recently as 5 days ago Leaman has incorporated a new company called
> "Amiga Technology Ltd". He is listed as the owner and sole managing director:
> https://www.companysearchesmadesimple.com/company/uk/10732120/amiga-technology-ltd/

http://www.amigatechnology.com (Whois info)

> amigaonthelake.com has plenty of stock in-house at the moment

"We have made a decision, concerning both A-EON and AmigaKit. The decision we made is grounded in our experience during the last 8 months in regards to both companies. As a result we have made the choice to no longer support A-EON or AmigaKit in any way, shape or form. We are still here and "may" be carrying more stuff soon. However no more X5000 or A1222 or, frankly anything produced from either company."
http://amigaonthelake.com

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Sad day, but hope AAH entity will learn not to de-prioritize resellers or whatever happened
as part of "8 month voyage".

I dont see what they could do currently, but offer Vampires once
they get a bit more mass produced.

Failed chance is x5000+MorphOS on sale in US. Amiga On The Lake
had quite nice ways of presenting it and aiding both end users and developers.
Small retailers tend to have "more love".

Once MOS for x5000 is done, Amedia could offer it
https://www.amedia-computer.com/en/
France was always nice MOS market

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Dont buy it for OS4 experience or at least wait until things mature. x5000 is faster quite a lot then x1000 minus Altivec (+20% clock rate,
better MIPs per Mhz) but there is virtualy nothing under OS4 that can make it sweat (as I cant on x1000).

Plus OS is in serious beta, judge it for yourself
http://forum.hyperion-entertainment.biz/viewforum.php?f=57

I might go even from x1000 to x5000 some point of distant future when things get sorted up
(and 040 model lives, if it lives with some SMP as more added speed + DDR3 RAM),
just for added MorphOS experience and escaping CFE curse. But if MOS PPC gets PA Semi/Nemo
support one day, that wouldnt be needed for x1000 owners.

Also Linux that could make decent desktop use of any G5,x1000,x5000
is not officially supported on x5000 and is some tricky mambo jumbo to install and update
and 3D on Southern Island cards is problematic
http://forum.hyperion-entertainment.biz/viewforum.php?f=58

So you get better Linux and stable MOS experience on high end G4/G5
and save some nerves until mythical OS 4.2, Libre and lets say Tower 57 arrive.

Only new worthy OS4 app is EMOTION, really good video player that simply
works great.

MorphOS port of Emotion would be great. Since its EncliclerX who owns it,
maybe its possible to preorder enough for them to have sustainable port,
if of any interest (I am not aware of MOS video player situation)

Flagship browser Odyssey and YAM are both avail for MOS, Odyssey even
in a bit updated version to OS4. Feature and software wise there are
subtle differences (better RadeonHD support on OS4, WarpOS support on MOS ...)
but they arent that big in favour of OS4 only. And MOS you can currently drive on
cheap hardware.

Classic stuff on OS 4.1FE update 1 (4.1.8). Wouldnt bet on that one either. In my experience
Photogenics and very few apps work out of box, few with heavy tweaks
and many not at all, or crash easily. MOS will do better there,
Vampire is a champ. WarpOS software works on OS4 SAM440 and maybe old A1
but not on x1000/x5000. Hype knows of bug, too laisy to fix or as that say "unimportant"
MorphOS works there if you need WOS apps and games.

Also, Enhancer makes OS looks nice and has new improved AmiDock X
and few updated tools. It is kind of what Hyperion was supposed to do.

Warp3D Nova is nice, but just few demos and one game currently (I am not fan of Minecraft).

[ Edited by vox 29.05.2017 - 14:34 ]

Quote:

Yes...hmm, saw that.
Kind screws up North America, and Matt's customer service to my country was kind of lacking anyway.
After all...returns? That is a bit of a distance.

It does factor into my desire to own one, that and the nasty vitriol coming from the fanatical fan base in Europe.
But at this point, IF they produce the P5040 version, I'll probably still source one to run MorphOS.

And nasty responses from OS4 users? I'm used to it.
I'm not even sure I care for Matt Leaman that much, but Trevor did finally get the thing built, so...

I did pull some of the funds I had saved and I had Aaron at AOTL send me an OWC SSD though.
He's a good man and I'd highly recommend him.
So this situation is doubly confounding.

[ Edited by Jim 29.05.2017 - 09:00 ]

Well, its sad to see any Amiga dealer in such a situation (that is my judgement).
AmigaKit is a worldwide dealer, but then again, there are reasons why we love
our local/regional dealers.

Hope situation will resolve once they get to produce more Cyruses.

As I describe above, I judge its OS4/Linux situation as similar to my x1000/Southern Island card,
and that is ... worth of waith for software to develop first.

Same goes for MorphOS port, I have no doubts it will support more out of box
(proper SATA and Ethernet driver and they would beat Steven Sollie) but we dont
have a definite MOS release too.

At the other hand, Amiga hardware availiability was always limited so I cant decide for you.
I hope Cyrus can get to a better production and more stable machine.
I like it seems some of "x1000 lessons" have been learned (easier to update BIOS, UBoot not CFE,
some nice boot menus, availiable and faster CPU).

[ Edited by vox 29.05.2017 - 13:24 ]

> +20% clock rate

No, see comment #647.

> Since its EncliclerX who owns it, maybe its possible to preorder enough
> for them to have sustainable port, if of any interest

EntwicklerX so far have always declined any requests for ports to Amiga-like OS other than OS4.

> I am not aware of MOS video player situation

Fab's MPlayer port is fine, albeit almost 2 years old.

> Odyssey even in a bit updated version to OS4.

No.

> WarpOS software works on OS4 SAM440 and maybe old A1

Yes, on PowerUP, Eyetech AmigaOne, Pegasos II and Sam440 (or more general: G2/G3/G4 and PPC440).

Quote:

OK, 11%, but in theory its up to +50% MIPS, while some is compensated by Altivec.

x5040 is expected to more the double it (2 x cores, + 20% cloock per each core to 020)

and if ever released, kind of might justify its high price

The x1000 uses the PA6T 1.8Ghz dual core, rated about 8000 MIPS (2.2 DMIPS * 1800 Mhz * 2 cores)
The x5020 uses the P5020 2.0Ghz dual core, rated about 12000 MIPS (3.0 DMIPS * 2000 Mhz * 2 cores )
The x5040 uses the P5040 2.4Ghz quad core, would rate about 28000 MIPS (3.0 DMIPS * 2400 Mhz * 4 cores )

> proper SATA [...] driver

What's wrong with the X5000 SATA driver?

> it seems some of "x1000 lessons" have been learned ([...] UBoot not CFE, [...] faster CPU).

The decisions for the particular boot loaders had nothing to do with "lessons learned". P.A. Semi used CFE for their Electra/Chitra boards, and Freescale used U-Boot for their P5020DS board. So they made the choice and A-Eon/Varisys simply followed it to minimize cost.
Also, the P5020 simply wasn't available before 2012 (the year of the X1000 release), so A-Eon/Varisys couldn't use it as base for the X1000 in 2009 (when the QorIQ P5 series wasn't even announced).

> x5040 is expected to more the double it (2 x cores, + 20% cloock per each core
> to 020) [...] The x5040 uses the P5040 2.4Ghz quad core, would rate about
> 28000 MIPS (3.0 DMIPS * 2400 Mhz * 4 cores )

Despite being announced, Freescale/NXP has never sold the P5040 at 2.4 GHz. Maximum has been 2.2 GHz, so I guess that's what the X5000/40 will use.